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Another Post-Flop Conundrum... Another Post-Flop Conundrum...

11-13-2016 , 11:55 AM
3 betting is by far the worst option here.
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11-13-2016 , 02:46 PM
This is the way I would have played the turn, but it's just me though, not a recipe. Play the player?
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11-13-2016 , 04:50 PM
What does three betting JJ on this board accomplish? What better hands fold? What worse hands call?
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11-13-2016 , 05:30 PM
None and none. You punish the bluffer. Again, accordingly to the information that was provided by OP.
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11-13-2016 , 06:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tirtep
None and none. You punish the bluffer. Again, accordingly to the information that was provided by OP.
How do you punish the bluffer if he does not call and you make him fold a hand correctly, and prevent him from bluffing the river since he fold to your turn raise ?
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11-13-2016 , 07:24 PM
But that is the whole point. His folding is your reward. You proved to be a better player and prevent other cacophonous situations. You know probably as well as I do that poker players take their decisions based on imperfect perceptions. At the end of the day is not the end of the world. It's just a game. In different circumstances I call the turn and evaluate the river.
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11-13-2016 , 08:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tirtep
You proved to be a better player and prevent other cacophonous situations.
Gotta break out my copy of Theory of Poker and look for this one on the list of "Reasons to Raise".

Seriously, this isn't a good way to think about playing limit. Re-bluffing a bluffer with a bluff catching hand isn't a win. We can just sit there all day, let him bluff off his chips, and he'll tell people around him what the idiot calling station just missed making a clear fold. He won't stop. Once he bluffs too far much, calling down is more profitable.

If your hand couldn't beat his bluffs and if he folds to additional aggression, then think about re-bluffing. If your hand is strong enough to beat some of his value range or he's a maniac, you could think about re-raising for value. Again, the idea of re-establishing dominance and stopping him from raising you isn't good -- if he bluffs too much (a mistake that makes you $), you don't stop his bluffing on purpose and intentionally make him play better. It is like trying to get a calling station to fold more, you prevent him from making the mistake he most wants to make.
Quote:
Then when I get raised by a lag I call down.
This
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11-13-2016 , 08:56 PM
Really good posts here. This is my favorite part though:

"It's just a game."

-----

The discussion begs the question:

What's the minimum value raising hand?
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11-13-2016 , 09:52 PM
Hi DougL! You didn't have to consult TOP to dispute my approach to this hand. Just kidding... On a serious note though, if you three bet, he folds and you don't show your hand, how he could possibly know what are you doing ( value betting or turning your hand to a "bluffing" hand) and adjust his style in the future. Either way you have the edge. However, in limit or no limit games my first option in situations like this would it be call the turn and evaluate the river. Against certain players I three bet and don't blink. In this particular case, as played folding is the worst option. Just my two cents.
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11-13-2016 , 09:58 PM
Hi Bob! What is the minimum value raising hand? Pocket JJ? Just joking.... Seriously, any pocket pair that you choose to raise pre flop.
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11-14-2016 , 07:37 AM
I'm raising 33+ preflop. I think 3 betting 33 would be pretty bad on the turn here.
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11-14-2016 , 09:23 AM
You lose with 33's and 44's , you split with 55's and you win with anything else. Not a bad deal, I think. Without counting that he might fold and you win 100 percent of the time. It's not as bad...
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11-14-2016 , 09:36 AM
Oops, you win with pocket 44's too, 4 was on the turn, right?
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11-14-2016 , 11:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tirtep
You lose with 33's and 44's , you split with 55's and you win with anything else. Not a bad deal, I think. Without counting that he might fold and you win 100 percent of the time. It's not as bad...


Everything you're saying in this thread is so completely biased by the results of the hand which the OP shouldn't have ever posted. And the funny part is that even though you know what villain had, you still want to play the hand incorrectly.
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11-14-2016 , 12:19 PM
Not exactly. I responded after only reading the OP first post and my key word was "loose aggressive". I explained my line of thoughts in earlier posts. Funny that you think that way. I am out.
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11-14-2016 , 05:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tirtep
I totally agree with your post. But as I said OP had a good read on BB. So, in the particular case the future that you were talking about was already here...
OP specifically said he ahd not seen BB raise turn before, so I disagree.
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11-14-2016 , 05:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL
Once he bluffs too far much, calling down is more profitable.
This assumes that BB raises hands like 55 as a bluff - I disagree. If BB overraises the turn with pocket pairs, he's targeting people with like AK and AJ that just keep firing mindlessly.

So against a range of like AQ-Q8 (sometimes even worse Qs), 9x, 88-, you're going to 3-bet queens with good kickers or better, for value. Then, add in enough JTs and nut flush draws so that he gets 12ish to 2 to call down, and then he'll call down with 88-.

I'll admit JJ is a stretch and obviously if JJ isn't high enough up to 3-bet, it's definitely too high to fold. But in general against LAGs your 3-bet range needs to be wide and you improve his calldown percentage by having (or being known to have) a bluffingr ange.
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11-14-2016 , 06:03 PM
That OP hadn't seen the BB to raise on the turn, I was very well aware of that piece of information but I didn't need it. It's always a first. Poker is not a mechanic, simplistic game awaiting for everything to happen and after that to take the decision. I used my imagination, right or wrong I was going to leave with it. I gave my response after I had read Only the OP's first post. For my satisfaction i didn't want to know the further development of this hand and final result after the turn. I hate being Monday morning quarterback. Turn out that I would been right in my way of thinking. You guys are not wrong in yours. Cheers!!!!

Last edited by tirtep; 11-14-2016 at 06:08 PM. Reason: typo
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