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Old 06-11-2012, 12:18 AM   #1
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Another $4/$8 Foxwoods question: I call down with top pair

A J in the CO.
Villain in this hand is a crazy guy UTG. I've seen him limp huge hands pf, have seen him triple barrel air only to find out he misread the board, and at times looks like a gigantic rand() function.

Action:

UTG limp, I raise, blinds fold, UTG call.

Flop (5.5 sb): A 9 5

UTG donk, I raise, UTG 3!, I call.

Turn (5.5 bb w/ rake): 3

He bet, I call.

River (7.5 bb): 7

He bet, I call.

Good? I really don't see anything else I can do once he re-raises me.
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Old 06-11-2012, 03:13 AM   #2
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Re: Another $4/$8 Foxwoods question: I call down with top pair

After the flop 3 bet I think all you can do is call down. You have position on him, so you can bet any later streets if he checks. Don't try to out crazy the crazy players. Just call them down and make them show you a better hand.

In LLHE games, some players that look like they are playing crazy, are not playing as crazy as they look like they are playing.
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Old 06-11-2012, 07:52 AM   #3
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Re: Another $4/$8 Foxwoods question: I call down with top pair

Why did you raise the flop?
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Old 06-11-2012, 10:51 AM   #4
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Re: Another $4/$8 Foxwoods question: I call down with top pair

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Originally Posted by leo doc View Post
Why did you raise the flop?
What's the best play here.. to call flop, turn and river?

I find myself in this situation every now and then. It's player dependent, but for the most part, I'd call down against the type of villain described here.
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Old 06-11-2012, 11:13 AM   #5
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Re: Another $4/$8 Foxwoods question: I call down with top pair

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Why did you raise the flop?
meh, i think against this guy it's fine
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Old 06-11-2012, 11:34 AM   #6
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Re: Another $4/$8 Foxwoods question: I call down with top pair

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Originally Posted by KitCloudkicker View Post
meh, i think against this guy it's fine
+1 often the donk from this type is to represent the A hoping you fold an underpair and he'll check-fold the turn if you call. But he'll call the flop raise b/c he already has so much money in. Also it's often a lesser A which he'll call down your raise with. The extra SB you get when he has these hands outweighs the extra BB you lose when he has a set or two pair.

NH imo
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Old 06-11-2012, 11:37 AM   #7
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Re: Another $4/$8 Foxwoods question: I call down with top pair

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I've seen him limp huge hands pf, have seen him triple barrel air only to find out he misread the board, and at times looks like a gigantic rand() function.
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Originally Posted by KitCloudkicker View Post
meh, i think against this guy it's fine
Well, if he's limping a huge hand or barreling air, then raising the flop serves no purpose. If he's doing that "gigantic rand() function" thing, then I have no idea wtf to do since I'm clueless as to what that means.
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Old 06-11-2012, 12:13 PM   #8
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Re: Another $4/$8 Foxwoods question: I call down with top pair

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Originally Posted by leo doc View Post
Well, if he's limping a huge hand or barreling air, then raising the flop serves no purpose. If he's doing that "gigantic rand() function" thing, then I have no idea wtf to do since I'm clueless as to what that means.
His donking range suggests any Ace, AA, 99, 55, and 95, with the occasional stupid thing mixed in. Even crazy people aren't donk bluffing a PFR'r, IMO. So:

Board: A 9 5
Hero: A J - 53.89%
Villain: AA,99,55,A2s+,95s,A2o+,95o - 46.11%

After he 3!'s, I remove A2-A4 from his range and become a dog.

FYI, "gigantic rand() function" means he basically is capable of doing things for no rhyme or reason. In this case, though, I think there was a purpose to his donk, but I think I had enough value (albeit barely enough) and the correct position to put more $ in the pot. Flop donking range too wide?
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Old 06-11-2012, 01:48 PM   #9
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Re: Another $4/$8 Foxwoods question: I call down with top pair

Op, your description of villain feels kinda contradictory. Seems strange to include comments like 3 barrels air and seems like giant random() function then later say his donk actually means something here and he's not bluffing.

Against your original post, I like a call flop, raise turn line. We get an extra bet out of his air and don't lose much against his value range.

Against your second post I could go either way, seems like the range you gave him is going to bet the turn with close to 100% of his range.
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Old 06-11-2012, 02:08 PM   #10
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Re: Another $4/$8 Foxwoods question: I call down with top pair

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Originally Posted by Slide View Post
Op, your description of villain feels kinda contradictory. Seems strange to include comments like 3 barrels air and seems like giant random() function then later say his donk actually means something here and he's not bluffing.

Against your original post, I like a call flop, raise turn line. We get an extra bet out of his air and don't lose much against his value range.

Against your second post I could go either way, seems like the range you gave him is going to bet the turn with close to 100% of his range.
Sorry, I guess calling him a rand function was a bit of an exaggeration. Whenever I see a bad player donk, it usually indicates either a marginal made hand, or a bluff. I wouldn't DQ him trying to get barrel-y w/ two pair here, though. This guy had donked a few times and outside of the time he misread the board (he did this about 3 times in 3 hours), he usually had something. I thought he had A2-A4, A6-A8, and AT plenty here, and that there was value in raising. Could be mistaken, I tend to struggle with my decision making in the face of a donk bet due to the WA/WB'ness of it.
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Old 06-11-2012, 04:13 PM   #11
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Re: Another $4/$8 Foxwoods question: I call down with top pair

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Originally Posted by jdr0317 View Post
Sorry, I guess calling him a rand function was a bit of an exaggeration. Whenever I see a bad player donk, it usually indicates either a marginal made hand, or a bluff.
What percentage of the time is this a bluff? How often will he donk/fold to a raise or fold on the turn vs. if you just call will he keep firing?

Your flop raise makes sense only if he donks with a worse hand than yours AND calls down when you raise.

If he's bluffing 50% of the time, has you beat 25% of the time, and has a worse hand 25% of the time that will only call down your raise half the time, then raising the flop costs you money.

Vs. really aggro/crazy players I like to call down unless I know them well enough to know they'll call my raise and call down AND I'm pretty sure I have them beat.
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Old 06-13-2012, 11:32 AM   #12
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Re: Another $4/$8 Foxwoods question: I call down with top pair

when people become confused they play predictably . when their base reaction is to call (or to bet) that's what they do.
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Old 06-13-2012, 07:55 PM   #13
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Re: Another $4/$8 Foxwoods question: I call down with top pair

he limped UTG and you raised PF (you never mentioned your position)

if he is REALLY strong, won't he be check raising here? heads up, i'm assuming you've established yourself as an aggressive player, therefore i'm fearing a check raise a lot more than a donk.

the 3-bet is interesting and in your situation, i'm calling down.
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Old 06-13-2012, 07:59 PM   #14
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Re: Another $4/$8 Foxwoods question: I call down with top pair

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meh, i think against this guy it's fine
Agreed. It can be any ace or whatever so raise for value is fine and kicker is too ****ty to wait for turn.
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Old 06-13-2012, 08:57 PM   #15
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Re: Another $4/$8 Foxwoods question: I call down with top pair

I think I read isn't great, if he would do this with any ace we should probably raise the turn. How has he played TP hands in your session? Does he 3 bet with terrible kickers or draws?

Also, when you say he limps big hands does he limp re-raise as well? If so you are probably ahead.
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