Poker Stars $3/$6 Limit Hold'em - 9 players
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Pre Flop: (1.333 SB) Hero is UTG+2 with K A
UTG raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, 6 folds

Flop: (5.333 SB) 4 6 8 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

Turn: (2.667 BB) 9 (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls

River: (4.667 BB) T (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls


Comments on all streets please, and don't pull any punches.

pf is terrible
if your river bet a value bet or a bluff? either way i don't much like it.
you should probably not be playing near 3/6 online

how's that?

Thank you, I deserve that. Honestly, I think I messed up all streets.

PF - should have 3 bet.
Flop - should have bet after he checked.
Turn - as played, probably better to fold
River - I tanked, but made what I thought was a value bet, since the way he played it, it was AK-AJ.


I think I had an epiphany on this hand. 3 bet more, especially against people with wide opening ranges. You'll win more hands when they miss. Had I 3 bet, I probably would have won with a c-bet on the flop. He had Q-10, caught his 10 on the river.

Ideally you should 3 bet pf then bet flop when checked to.

If called both pf and on the flop, I bet the turn as the last money going in UI. Because there are draws out there that I want to charge.

If the board on the turn is rainbow and still 9 high, again I might bet to take it down.

Although against some opponents, checking the tuirn with the intention of catching his river bluff bet is another viable line.

**edit**

As played I dont fold the turn against all villains, this could easily be a villain buying the poot with a weaker ace or random picture cards.

As played I think folding the turn would be rather bad.

I'm also down with the river value bet. I think we are going to be paid by AQ/J here far more often than villain showing up with a pair.

pretty much what every else said, 3b p/f

River actually strikes me as a reasonable value bet, if you take UTG's flop check as evidence that he doesn't have a pocket pair and if he is capable of playing ace-high this way and calling on the end.

You said it best, you will win more 3betting preflop with that hand when they miss. IMO though, online, I think you need to be 3 barrelling that hand through.

lol no

i wouldnt bet this river because your hand has showdown value. You could possibly bet if you put him on AQ/J like you said but the way you played it, you had no idea what he had.

stop ruining my fun.

A value bet is ok even if your opponent sometimes has you beat. You just need his calling range to have more worse hands than better hands. The main concern is opening yourself up to a check-raise.

i agree you can value bet but in this spot you have no idea what he has because of the way it was played.

If you've been playing with someone long enough, it's possible to get a read. It's probably not a great value bet against a complete unknown (against whom I'd be inclined to check behind to guarantee a showdown so I can get a read), but there exist conditions under which it makes sense. As I said, if opponent's calling range includes AQ and AJ and he is unlikely to check most pocket pairs on the flop, then it makes sense. If he has ace-high, he can beat a busted flush draw, so ace-high might call.

anyone who doesn't cbet this flop (like villain) is gonna be bad/lolbad, in which case his range is wide, in which case we don't have a valuebet on the river, imo

both players misplayed the hand, it happens, we learn from it and move on

happy new year

Not to pile on here, but I'm completely in BBB's camp.

Even your second analysis is wrong. Read this. Ed's stuff is classic.

If these decisions are not easy for you, you should move down from the 3/6 game online.

You 3 bet AKs PF because it is a no-brainer 3 betting hand. You c-bet the flop because you always do this HU after you 3 bet. I'd fire the second barrel on the turn because that's how I roll. I'd check behind on the river because I have showdown value and because he already called a ton of action; he's folding nothing I beat. As BBB said, I don't have enough equity to value bet it.

The fact that you are using the results to analyze the hand is very bad. Going back and figuring out how to play against the QT he had is counter productive.

I appreciate the piling on...otherwise, I never would posted this hand for comment and thrashing.

Yes, a 3-bet pf should have been in order. In fact, over the last couple of days, I've been 3 betting much more liberally, based mostly on the comments I've gotten in this post. I'm also 3 betting more in position facing a LP open. what I find is that I am probably one of the more aggressive players at the table.

Of course, this now leads to more players playing back at me, so that is the next thing I have to work on - how to react to players capping my 3 bets, then leading out on the flop (and I miss).

In response to your comments, I did not always 3 bet AK (especially vs. UTG or UTG + 1 raises, or oop in multiway pots) prior to this post and now I have learned that it is a "no brainer". Lesson learned - now to put this in action.

I do always Cbet headsup if I raised PF. Never a problem there.

There does seem to be some disagreement about the river bet. As I noted, in this particular hand, I made what I thought was a value bet, admittedly very thin. I also understand the showdown value concept, and if I had to do this again, I would have checked behind for reasons noted (unknown player, to get a read, etc.)

Sir, DougL, you post the most helpful links ever!
When I started to play poker I didn't read any book, but I won because on an instinctive level, I played very aggressively in bigger pots and folded more in small pots. I think that's the only thing I did correctly but it made me a huge winner overall. (sorry, not huge, I built my bankroll to 1500 playing 3-6 live in a couple of months). Then I read some books, and had a looong down swing. I think WEAK-TIGHT. Reading + not understanding key concepts took the aggression out of me.
I am glad I joined 2+2 forums. Honestly, I don't care whether I raise AJo from BB against 3 limpers, but I think I have understood much more important poker concepts crucial for winning big, by being on these forums.

Thanks everyone.

vs a raise preflop im never not threebetting ak

A rock solid player raises UTG. FOLDED around to you. you hold AKo in SB. What then?
If you still 3-bet, it has to be because you play well post-flop OOP.
I might even fold .
I will most likely raise with position, though

You need to put your "rock solid" player on a range. 9 handed, WITHG has an UTG range of 88+, ATs+, AQo+, KQs. This is a 6% UTG range, nicely snug. A bad player might not be as positionally aware as a high limit player, and given his flatter range, he might be this wide or wider even if he is a bit more snug overall than our TAG book.

The sim is small enough to enumerate all, so no uncertainty here.

1,356,144,768 games 0.005 secs 271,228,953,600 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 51.206% 43.91% 07.30% 595461660 98972088.00 { AKo }
Hand 1: 48.794% 41.50% 07.30% 562738932 98972088.00 { 88+, ATs+, KQs, AQo+ }

There are some things to consider here. First, you are very likely to blow the BB out of the pot. Your hand has a much better chance of winning unimproved if you are heads up. Also, the dead money from the BB is very nice for you. Also, you're going to play this hand HU and out of position. Being the aggressor here is worth something, and given that you have a small equity edge, you're getting paid to establish this advantage.

Folding here is horrible. Let's go against a rock (who is more likely to allow us to steal some pots).

616,429,440 games 0.005 secs 123,285,888,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 42.819% 28.08% 14.74% 173097708 90852480.00 { AKo }
Hand 1: 57.181% 42.44% 14.74% 261626772 90852480.00 { JJ+, AQs+, AKo }

What is the equity of 3 betting a nit? You have to put in 2.5 SB with only 42% equity. Your return (due to dead money) is 2.94 SB - 2.5SB, so you are getting 0.44 SB of positive return. Also, against a nit, you may be setting yourself up to bluff out his most likely holdings (AK, AKs) on a flop that misses. If he's (correctly) showdown bound, this isn't a consideration.

Flat out: Folding is bad.

Do this in a 3/6 game and you will be abused.

---

FWIW, the player I don't like to play HU and out of position is a correctly tricky and aggressive player. A really solid LAGTAG is a pain in these spots, and if he uses position well, this hand is less appealing. I'm still playing, but I know that I'm going to be put through the ringer a lot of the time. The tighter he is PF, the worse I assume he plays post flop. Even if he has position on me, I assume I'll give a nit trouble.

Loose super-passive player whose UTG raising range is AA and sometimes KK, never QQ and never AK.

Who's three-betting?

well, honestly, I'd 3-bet if I think the UTG's range is as wide as you suggested. I see players raise only if they've anything beyond QQ+. It's true. They limp/call with everything else! It's an autofold for me against THEM. OOP, small pot, why bother?

DougL, the sims look solid. thanks.
Two things that must be considered:
the ratio SB: BB (1:3, 2:3...)
the effect of rake

guys, should i close this thread? i worry it's getting off-topic and mubsy