In a somewhat passive/aggressive game would raising Ace 2-8 suited be a +EV? Or is limping in hoping to play them with multi-way with flush equity more standard?

Thanks

What has happened in front of you?

Folded to us we raise, limped to us we limp as well?

It's not that simple.

Generally, if you limp, you want it to be like 6-way for 1 bet (so open-limping is fine in loose-passive games). If you raise, you want to be HU IP (so factor in what people will do behind you with dominating and dominated hands).

Also not all middle positions are the same.

I don't know.

Are pots going off 6+ ways constantly, regardless of # of bets pre? Then your suited ace stands to win its fair share through nothing but nutmaking potential, regardless of position.

From there, it depends. Maybe you're capable enough to get away from a TPWK type hand and open A8s from UTG. From MP, I'm certainly opening A8s and maybe A7s. I'm opening any suited A from the BTN or CO, as well as any A, period from the BTN.

It depends.
How can a game be passive/aggressive?
If you are limping, have a good reason why. Else, raise or fold.
Fold A2o OTB.

prove it?

Pretty sure Stox's database shows it to be EV-.

I open it, though.

Isn't Stox playing far tougher games than any of us live guys are? Surely that has to be a consideration (and that if we can't open hands declared as marginally EV- in Stox's games in a live game, then we're probably in a crappy game)?

Those charts were from like 2008?

Do you have 10 million hands from live games in 2014 that shows it's EV+?

No?

Okay, then, let's start with what we have. It was EV- in mid-stakes online games in 2007. Why do you think it's different now?

Like I said, I think it's a snap open. But if you want proof, 100% of the posted evidence says no. So either decide that proof isn't what you really want or post some.

My point is the book is from half a decade ago where poker theory has evolved a boatload. A lot of stuff is going to be dated.

Fwiw I thought stoxs poker was one of the best books on the market.

The book has a2o at like -0.06 BB over 89 trials at the high limits, -0.17 BB over 23 hands at the mid level, and +0.14 BB over 54 trials at the low levels.

It also has a8s from the same position at -0.04 BB

There's also other implications that can be made from the chart but the sample size was not that big.

So what's your argument in favor of raising A2o?

we have ace high IP with dead money in the pot.

I actually don't know whether or not raising A2o is EV- or EV+ for my whole range, but my humanly brain thinks it's too strong not to open for the reasons I listed.

I only quoted phunkphish because "Fold A2o OTB" seems like a very bold statement, which strikes the curiosity in me. If you run that hand against some defending ranges, it's just a clear favorite. And also we win the blinds uncontested sometimes too.

I also feel like bringing up a chart written in 2007 is not really valid as proof. Stox's book recommended a button range of 40% and I'm sure that's changed a lot. Only 40% open OTB these days in tough games is probably lighting money on fire.

Most players don't actually raise that much, but they glare at you and hold raising chips in their hand while they call.

So a chart of numbers is less proof than "my brain thinks"?

My brain happens to agree with your brain, at least for me, my image, my level of postflop skill, and typical opponents. But I've open-folded A2o OTB and am pretty sure that was correct in the scenario.

BTN play varies so wildly with the blinds' tendencies that you'll see a wide variation in what good, winning players will open.

I'm actually surprised that Stox's books show such small sample sizes. It's actually the first time I've ever read the chart - despite reading the book since whenever it came out and owning a copy since 2010. Looks like they were even more worthless than I assumed them to be.

In before Mason...

Doona fold A2o OTB in a live game in an unopened pot. Just doona.

Probably only for A2o cause grinders weren't opening it back then.

If the two people to your left are people you don't want to play with, and care about the money, A2o is pretty high on the top of the list to just fold.



A2o was abnormally low compared to AKo, but even like AKo only has a few hundred trials. For a 1 MM+ sample size there should be 10k.

Not really.

1 MM/ 6 (hero on BTN) /3 (folded to btn, approx) /221 (number of combos) ~ 250

You're right, although offsuit combis should number C(52,2)/12 and not 221.

ya that's right.