Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
AA UTG 9way action AA UTG 9way action

05-21-2015 , 01:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon_locke
I think your assumptions are wrong, so I guess that's all there is to that.
Yep. And that's cool with me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon_locke
I agree that your line may result in winning this hand more often (although I'm
Not convinced of that) Perhaps I'm wrongly keeping score with how much money I win than how many pots I win.
When the pot reaches a certain size and I have a vulnerable but likely best hand, I'm taking the strategy that wins the most pots because I believe that strategy will net me the most money in the long run. I believe that's the best general course. You're free to disagree. At the end of the day tho poker is not about winning pots, it's about making correct decisions. That's all you can really control. I think decision points change at certain pot sizes with certain holdings. That's pretty much it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon_locke
Basically, you say you don't care if he checks 40% of the deck on the turn. I don't care enough to do the math, but I'd guess that if we were to compare the two lines and let him donk the turn 40% with your line the two wouldn't be close.
No need to make up percentages. Poker, like life, is risky. The best laid plans can always backfire. When the pot gets very large I'm willing to take on certain risks if I believe such a strategy maximizes the probability of winning that pot.
AA UTG 9way action Quote
05-21-2015 , 01:44 AM
I'm not making up percentages, board pairing and straight/A cards count for 40% of the remaining stub. I think this is a very large number and way to large to account for him leading the turn often enough to sacrifice a flop raise.

Also you need to account for the % of times we actually are beat, as your line results in maximum loss when we get 3 bets in on the turn (rather than getting 4 bet on flop, or check raises on the turn and we call down both).
AA UTG 9way action Quote
05-21-2015 , 07:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon_locke
I'm not making up percentages, board pairing and straight/A cards count for 40% of the remaining stub. I think this is a very large number and way to large to account for him leading the turn often enough to sacrifice a flop raise.

Also you need to account for the % of times we actually are beat, as your line results in maximum loss when we get 3 bets in on the turn (rather than getting 4 bet on flop, or check raises on the turn and we call down both).
Yes there's lots of possibilities that are hard to account for. As I've said from the beginning, I cannot prove my case. And it goes without saying that the other side can't prove their case either. No big deal. That's life sometimes. I've said why I think raising the flop with AA in this spot is a mistake, and I've elaborated on why I think that is so, and I've elaborated on why I take an alternative line. There's nothing else that needs to be said. You're free to disagree.
AA UTG 9way action Quote
05-21-2015 , 08:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by callipygian
Right, because clearly donking is aggressive.
Wat?

It most certainly is. Of the four action options in a poker hand, check and call are passive, bet and raise are aggressive.

Sent from my QMV7B using 2+2 Forums
AA UTG 9way action Quote
05-21-2015 , 02:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeo
Wat?

It most certainly is. Of the four action options in a poker hand, check and call are passive, bet and raise are aggressive.
You're focused on the definitions rather than the meanings.

Donking is a passive move in most cases, and the donk/call-redonk line is exceptionally passive. It comes from a fear that the initiative-holder won't bet (e.g., free carding), or that their hand isn't good enough for 3 bets. Check/raise is more aggressive than donking, despite how it's counted in Pokertracker.

As an aside, I've voiced this opinion in micros before, but I strongly caution people against blindly trusting Pokertracker stats. Counting check/raises as a check and a raise (AF = 1/2) is a quirk of the program, not a reflection of reality. Likewise, AF is rooted in VPIP. Someone with a 5% VPIP should have an astronomical AF, because they should be betting and raising almost anything postflop. Someone with a 50% VPIP and a 30% flop aggression has a 15% range; someone with a 20% VPIP and a 50% flop aggression has a 10% range. To best reflect reality, check/fold, check/call, and donk/call should be weighed against check/raise and donk/3-bet in the OOP case. Donk/call may be aggressive in multiway pots where the turn is not redonked without improving.
AA UTG 9way action Quote
05-21-2015 , 09:09 PM
Isn't it true that in these low-stakes no-fold'em games most players who donk the flop and get raised will only donk the turn if their hand improved to (or already was) two pair or better?
AA UTG 9way action Quote
05-21-2015 , 09:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan
Isn't it true that in these low-stakes no-fold'em games most players who donk the flop and get raised will only donk the turn if their hand improved to (or already was) two pair or better?
I've found that to be the case online but not live.
AA UTG 9way action Quote
06-21-2015 , 11:04 PM
getting backdoor flush draws and two outers out on the flop is enough to make me want to raise the flop in this pot. not to mention you get a big clusterf*** when you raise a broadway turn and get 3 bet, as raise/folding up to 6 clean outs on something like a turn J is silly.

ILP i think you're only considering the ideal scenario, when there are plenty of other possibilities that can screw up your plan.
AA UTG 9way action Quote
06-23-2015 , 11:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by heikkie
So I was in a lose simi passive game. Kill pot (3/6-->6/12). I utg with AA. Raise preflop, get 9 callers... BB Bet on flop, I raise, 7 callers. Turn still BB LEAD and I raise on turn , 6 ppl call. One bet round on river, 3 ppl at showdown.... The BB hit two pair at the river with k 4 off( the other guy have AKs). (K on the flop). I was very frustrated and use 2 hour to build even. I don't know what can I do to avoid it. Maybe don't play kill pot? It is just emotionally hurting. I want to discuss how can I protect my hand better. Thank you
no reason to raise the flop. Pot is already 19 bets, raising doesn't do anything.

I call flop and raise the turn.
AA UTG 9way action Quote

      
m