Live FR 4/8. The game is playing very passively PF, with raises coming in maybe less than 10% of the time. "Why raise pre if I'm never hitting the flop" is a common mantra here.

UTG: seems new to playing live (I am too, but I can spot it), playing pretty tight/passive; hasn't been playing many hands at all.

Rest of table: loose/passive older men

UTG limps, folds to me with A6o in the HJ, I call and it calls around. (6sb)

Q1: obviously straying a bit here from SSHE, which has been my primary source for study material as I'm learning, but with the PF raise not really being a threat, I'm thinking I can loosen my ranges from LP?

Flop: JhTc6h

UTG leads with a bet, I?

I don't think I've seen this guy bet a flop all day, so my read is TPGK or better here. I don't hold a heart, so I am drawing to maybe 5 outs counting partial heat outs (non-heart Aces may not be 100% outs either). I fold.

So, too loose pre, this line ok, or should I call here? If the flop had been rainbowed does this change anything?

Turn: 6d

Fold pre. Your hand isn't strong enough to raise and it doesn't play well in a MW pot. Tight passive players limp in with too many hands that have your hand in bad shape. it doesn't appear you will be able to inherit the button with this crew.

I would fold the flop. It's a small pot and this board hit UTG's range. You also have several players to act behind you who could raise. if an ace hits it may give someone a straight. A heart could give someone a flush.

You can play more hands like pocket pairs, Axs, and suited connectors in games like this because these all play well in MW pots.

I'm already playing all pocket pairs and Axs in this game. The strength of sc's I play varies with my position, obviously.

My feeling is that this is too loose, but I'm wondering if there is a point at which the threat of PF raising becomes so low that we can see more flops with more marginal hands. A6o maybe not being the best example, but maybe better off suit aces, KTo from earlier positions, JTo, etc.

Am I just looking for excuses to play like a fish?

I think you are just looking for excuses to play with the fish which is not a bad thing. You just have to make sure your not stooping to their level. One of the advantages a good player has is his ability to be more appropriately selective of the hands he plays.

I would recommend posting some pre flop situations in the "Pre Flop Check Up Post" thread.

Job 1 for you is to consider what range of hands UTG is limping and how A6o does vs. that range. "What's my equity vs. the one person who has voluntarily played his hand so far?" Sure, people might call if you limp and might even call if you raise. However, you've got two random hands in the blinds. If they call 100% of the time (no fold equity), you're playing against <random> with a hand better than that.

Let's quote Ed Miller's famous take off the training wheels post. Since he wrote SSHE, he probably does fine as an authority. Straying is no problem. It is when and why. Is this a good spot? If it is, how much worse a hand could you play? If it isn't, how much better would you need?

Two blinds check to UTG. He bets, there are two people behind you (CO and BTN, as I read it). 6 ways to the flop, so you're getting 7:1. How's your position? Are these odds correct?

As before, this starts with UTG's preflop range and his flop leading range. Then, pot odds.

Once you fold, this doesn't matter. It can come running 6's and it doesn't. Either your flop play was correct or it wasn't.

My inclination would be to raise preflop, assuming that the UTG isn't killing us. If he's playing like AKo-ATo, ATs-AJs, JJ-88, KQo or a similarly tight range, our hand is junk and we fold with a grin. It is worse limping because we're dragging in people who have position on us with a hand that is hoping to flop TPWK. The raising plan is about driving out CO and BTN, so in some games that can't happen. Then, I'd wish we had 98s. All these ideas you should check in equilab.

Was hoping for some homework from you. I'll work on this in a bit.

I do not give him that tight of a range PF. I do not count him as being super positionally aware, so I think my assessment of his tightness in this hand does not necessarily stem from his being UTG, but more so from his seeming unwillingness to play more hands in later positions (I hope that makes sense).

That said, I would assign a range of something like TT-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-KTs, QTs+, JTs, AJo-ATo, KJo, QJo. I might be loosening his range a little with all the suited aces, but I think this is ok. Against this range I have 43% equity pre-flop.

I don't count on the small blind coming in for a raise without a strong hand, however, I can count on the big coming along pretty wide, more than 50% of the time for sure.

Given that UTG is betting out on this board, I think his range narrows tremendously to NFD's (maybe not even betting into 5 players with that), top pair, top two, OESD (again, maybe giving him too much credit on leading into 5 players with a draw; he is passive), and sets. Against that range, I have 22% equity OTF heads up. With a raise preflop and a call from the big blind, we have 6.5 sb's in the pot. Immediately, I am getting 7.5:1 on a call after he bets out.

This is where my understanding of the math gets a little shaky. Equity wise I am priced in for a call on this betting round, but I face two additional betting rounds. Additionally, I am drawing virtually dead against sets, thin against flush draws, and thin against OESD's. How do I understand my equity in light of these facts?

Give him the range of hands you suspect he does, and see what your hot/cold equity looks like. In equilab, there is that cool pie chart button. Once you put in the flop, narrow his range using it. It is a pretty powerful tool.

Against UTG, this is fairly easy. The large number of other players makes it harder. Maybe the SB and BB pretty much always lead out with top pair or better? If so, remove those hands from their range. The later players have position (which sucks) and haven't acted (which is also bad) -- basically, close spots mean you probably should give up.

If your UTG were tighter, AJ and AT would make up more of his total range. Drawing to make 2nd best 2 pair is the worst, and should be expensive. That would also make you discount calling in close spots. I'm guessing SSHE has some discussion of flop play in multiway pots that hits the "you should like your hand more/less" if X or Y. Lots of reasons for less in this hand.

Raising pre is much better than calling, which are both inferior to folding.

+1 more for folding pre ainec

My thoughts are to raise our fold pf. Get position and hopefully a short handed flop. This seems like a hand I'd plan to win with either fold equity when vill hits nothing, getting a flop call and turn fold when I hit my ace, and since the vill is loose passive, maybe a three barrel bluff if he calls two and folds rivers. New l.p. Players, I wouldn't count on folding a ton, so plan accordingly.

As played, I either fold (1st) or raise on the flop. I raise instead of call to get some folds behind me in the small pot , and possibly attempt to steal if it's heads up on the turn and/or vill may be betting a flush draw. The turn becomes tricky after raising flop when you miss since a check back will show weakness and you could be betting into a weak to pair that won't fold. Raising flop does give you a chance to see two cards for less and draw cheap, maybe even steal with a river bet. If I raise flop and get 3'd I fold because I'm way behind a passive players range.

Just my thoughts...thoughts?

Strongly disagree that raising here is better than limping along. Limping is way better than raising. We have a poor hand. Rest of table is loose passive. Raising is unlikely to get us heads up or even 3way. Not like we can cbet and win. Initiative is useless. Bloating the pot is terrible with this hand hand -- no flush or straight potential, barely any highcard strength.

Not really an issue though since its an obvious fold anyway.

Raising is def better (I think you will lose slightly less) but agree it's a non issue

For the newer people around here who have the time/inclination, this is a great spot to play around with equilab. We have a tight/passive UTG limper. Give him a range. Give us A6o. See how good/bad it looks. Then see how him getting tighter or looser impacts our equity. Does it matter much how many A-big he limps? You can also play with his raising range. Is it better if he raises AJo and AQo and JJ-99? (hint: in the range tool, there is a PFR slider). Then add a 50% range for the button or CO, assuming that one of them calls. Maybe whack off JJ+, KQs, AQs+, AKo or whatever you think they'd 3 bet. Does that help or hurt A6o? Now add two blinds with <random>. How are we looking?

Then, redo this exercise with JTs, 98o, K7s, 66, and a few other hands. What do we want equity-wise? My prediction is that JTs will like this spot as long as UTG isn't too tight, and it will love company. Put in your own favorite "maybe I should get out of line and play this hand". This is a good place to consider how equity changes in situations, especially with non-premium hands.

Pre is bad, flop is worse.

This doesn't seem like the kind of player that you'd want to get involved with w/r/t his range anyway. If he's limping ATs-AQs, AJo-AKo, KQs, 22-88 (I see a lot of "tight passive" dudes who play this way), then A6o is just in terrible shape and has no real way of getting paid when ahead. If I was on the button against one loose passive drooler, I'd raise, but besides that.

Flop is too weak. You're almost certainly behind, but he could be betting a hand like KQs or some flush draw (didn't see the board), and you're getting a decent price IP.

A6o is doing pretty badly against UTG plus my range for these particular button/blind opponents; they can limp jacks and maybe even queens. Without the jacks and queens my hand is 17% five ways (UTG, me, button and blinds), so about as strong as the random hands in the blinds. UTG has by far the best of it with >25%.

It helps our hand quite a bit if he is raising the hands you mentioned.

I'll look at some other hands I look at at feel like getting out of line with this afternoon: A9o, JTo, etc.

One of the problems with A6 is that it either wins a small pot or loses a large one. If you flop an A, either you are the only one who has an A and you win a small pot, or someone else also has an A, in which you are most likely in trouble with your weak kicker and you will have to put in a bunch more chips to find this out.

What flop are you hoping for? You can't flop a straight or a flush, just draws to one. Sure, two pair would be nice, but that's always the case, not just with A6. And if you pair your 6, you may have bottom pair which can be tough to play.

I usually fold A6o preflop.

This leads to the question, "what is the worst Axo that is playable in this spot?" Followed by, "do you raise or call with it?"

In this exact spot A8o holds 20% equity 5 ways, but that is after eliminating the possibility of a PFR from the CO-BB, so not strong enough to play. A9o does a few points better, but suffers from the same problem. If you give just the button a PFR range, you dip below 20% with A8o and A9o is right on it. ATo fares much better even including the PFR holdings for the button.

JTo looks marginal, JTs is doing just fine, 66 is also doing pretty well

Even I fold preflop.

it can win several small pots even without hitting an ace. If someone gives you action on A hi flop, you know where you are

8-5-2

So you're hoping to miss the flop on a board that hits some limpers and then turn the potentially best hand into a bluff? That after we've limped, capped our range, and hopefully not been (correctly) raised by people left to act behind us. One, 8-high boards aren't common. Two, this is a terrible way to approach low stakes limit poker.

If I limped along with A6o in the spot, which I wouldn't because it's a super easy fold pre flop, I surely would NOT hope for the 852r flop. I would hope first for 666r, then 66Att and then AA6tt.

AAAx is fine by me as well. Raised a couple of marginal hands similar to this last night in what I deemed to be good spots and it worked out much better for me.

Agree AAA would be decent as well.