Live $4/8 game

Everyone folds to loose cut-off. He raises to $8.

Loose button cold calls.

I have 99 in SB, and 3-bet.

BB folds, cut-off and button both call.

Flop Qd 8c 2h

I bet, they both call.

Turn Ad

I bet, they both call.

River 2c

I check, cut-off bets, button calls, I fold.

I would bet the flop and check the turn to see what happens but expect to fold. As you played it, I think you can reasonably fold the river with a bet, call and two overcards. But you will fold the winner on a rare occasion.

Thanks. I agree with that. I think I should have checked the turn, since they both called the flop. I was hoping the turn was a scare card for them, since I 3 bet PF, but they weren't really thinking players and the odds are one of them had an ace anyway. Heads up I think it is a bet.

I really didn't like any of my choices preflop. I think a call is bad. But nines just seem pretty low of a pair to 3 bet. There will almost always be over cards, and I will be OOP against 2 people. I think I should have just mucked it preflop, but not sure.

If it was a loose raiser and loose caller, folding 99 in SB seems really bad. I usually call in that spot, but I like. 3 bet more than a fold.

The only thing to be aware of is if the raiser is loose with his calls but really tight with his raises, even if opening in late position. That wouldn't describe many players though.

The raiser was very loose overall, but when he raised it was usually with pretty good hands. KQ+, 77+. I definitely was more concerned about his range than the cold caller's. I was going to call but I've read that pairs play better if you can either get them short handed or with 5+ callers, not 3-4 callers. But maybe the thinking has changed on that. It just felt like a gross spot no matter which action I took: fold, call, or re-raise.

Being in the SB is gross in general. But you have to do the best you can; it would be better if you were headsup or 8 handed with 99, but you can't just fold a good hand because conditions aren't perfect. That's a fairly tight raising raising raise, but clearly not tight enough to fold. I would only consider folding if I know he only raises big pocket pairs.

Against this range (and a loose cold-caller). I would usually just call preflop; partially because I think being in the SB is such a handicap postflop. But I'm sure a lot of good players here would 3-bet there, and I can't really argue against it.

As played, I also check the turn and usually fold to a bet. Certainly fold if it went bet and call.

Thanks, Rob. Good points. I tend to struggle in spots that I haven't seen before, and this was one of them.

Ducky, pull out equilab and give the two players in the pot ranges of hands.

I'm going to start here by giving your loose CO an actual decent range for CO opening. I'll give your BTN a decent BTN raising range (minus absolute best) that he butchered by cold calling.

Equity Win Tie
CO 30.92% 30.08% 0.84% { 22+, A2s+, K5s+, Q9s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 87s, 76s, A5o+, K9o+, QTo+ }
BU 25.29% 24.44% 0.84% { JJ-22, AJs-A2s, K2s+, Q5s+, J7s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s, AQo-A2o, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T8o+, 98o }
SB 43.79% 43.42% 0.38% { 99 }

If my assumptions are correct (you should revise based on in-game knowledge), it would be a crime to do anything but 3 bet. If the BB cold calls the 3 bet with a random hand, you have 35% equity 4 ways -- this is a common fear, but it isn't terrible for you. Remember, I gave the CO a range close to what a good mid-stakes player might play. Thus, even if he's good you can just 3 bet this hand. What if he's a nit?

Equity Win Tie
CO 36.53% 35.70% 0.83% { 55+, A7s+, K9s+, QTs+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, A9o+, KQo }
BU 23.55% 22.81% 0.74% { JJ-22, AJs-A2s, K2s+, Q5s+, J7s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s, AQo-A2o, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T8o+, 98o }
SB 39.92% 39.47% 0.45% { 99 }

40% 3 ways is plenty of edge to play out of position.

Now, I'll take the tight range to the flop
Board: Q82
Equity Win Tie
CO 39.30% 38.73% 0.57% { 55+, A7s+, K9s+, QTs+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, A9o+, KQo }
BU 23.47% 23.05% 0.42% { JJ-22, AJs-A2s, K2s+, Q5s+, J7s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s, AQo-A2o, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T8o+, 98o }
SB 37.23% 36.86% 0.37% { 9s9c }

and turn
Board: Q82 A
Equity Win Tie
CO 54.02% 53.07% 0.95% { 55+, A7s+, K9s+, QTs+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, A9o+, KQo }
BU 32.85% 32.00% 0.84% { JJ-22, AJs-A2s, K2s+, Q5s+, J7s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s, AQo-A2o, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T8o+, 98o }
SB 13.13% 12.97% 0.17% { 9s9c }

Put in your own ranges to modify this. Learn anything?

Not re-raising preflop would be bad, that's why good players do it. Given 43% equity 3 ways, cold calling both loses value and partitions your range.

Preflop - I would usually just call the raise from the SB rather then 3 bet. A lot depends on the loose buttons raising range. If his raising range is loose too, then 3 bet is better.

Flop - There is one over card on the flop. Having 3 bet preflop and only 2 opponents, I would definitely bet the flop.

Turn - The ace is not a good card. I would check the turn. If someone bets I would usually fold unless my reads were the player that bet frequently bluffs big streets.

Well, I said that I would just call based on the actual range that OP gave us, not two theoretical ranges that I think people should be playing from the cutoff.

Even if he hadn't given a range, I think your first one is way too loose for a typical raiser at 4/8, and even your "nitty" range is a little too loose for a typical 4/8 raiser.

c/f turn

pf seems like a whatever spot. if you just call preflop, what boards are you checkraising the flop with?

Please show your work.

seems like anything but a whatever spot pf. Cold calling at best feels terrible and at worst is still terrible with the added benefit of getting to learn some really bad habits for higher limits where it is definitely terrible.

And to answer your question: he's only c/r'ing sets and open enders because the same set of fears and equity misunderstandings that lead to people cold calling this preflop lead to the same mistakes postflop

you're right in that cold calling here is terrible in a typical game higher than 4/8; however, this hand is posted in a 4/8 game, where PF opening ranges are much tighter even in late position. in 4/8 people open limp CO with hands they should open with. now if the CO is opening with a correct (even slightly snug) range, then obviously 3 betting pre here is a no-brainer.

the whole "building bad habits" thing also makes no sense to me. you should play to maximize your expectation against specific opponents, not some nebulous idea of "perfect" LHE for all tables.

and i think your 2nd claim is baseless without knowing anything about the OP.

does not the range he listed qualify as "slightly snug?"

He's not building bad habits by going from a rote strategy, he's building bad habits by trying to maximum his expections against specific reasons. Beginning players just rarely know what the correct adaptations are. Learning a "correct" exploration isn't "correct" if you're doing for the wrong reason. All it will do is reinforce bad habits. pretty easy for an exploitive play to just be a convenient cover for what really comes down to an inexperienced player either not fully understanding their equity or not having the clackers the 3b oop in a sticky spot yet. Those issues can be fixed but before those wounds can heal they need to realize this not a whatever spot preflop

Looks to me that OP's 3-betting preflop led to what everyone agrees was the mistake of his betting the turn. I would call 3-betting preflop an "advanced" play; something that one shouldn't be doing if not an advanced player, as it will lead to further mistakes in this game right now, regardless if he ever moves up or not.

This is just garbage. First of all just because betting turn may be mistake the appropriate response is to teach him why not to bet the turn. Avoiding an easily fixable hole instead of just simply fixing it is dumb. It doesn't matter what level you play, you're always going to get stuck in marginal spots. If you just avoid them instead of learning then you may as well give up on getting better to begin with.

Secondly, you're kidding right? Results oreiented much? Oh he made a mistake betting the turn so clearly the better option is to just cold call because clearly he's never going to be making the mistake of folding the winner because he has third pair oop and no clue where he's at in the hand

Thirdly, I'd argue that three betting is the easy auto pilot option. It makes the hand "simpler" and the worst thing that can happen is he makes a >one bet mistake. The advanced play is calling cold where you're now asking and inexperienced player to make tough desicions, oop. Incorrectly folding the turn after just call pf and flop is a much bigger mistake and one he's going to make more often than an experienced player

It has nothing to do with the results of the hand, but points to the fact that when inexperienced players take the betting lead in a marginal spot, they tend to continue being aggressive for too long.

I don't have a way to attach the results, but I did just run it in the Poker equity calculator for Android.

I used the range for cutoff that OP gave of KQ+ and 77+. I had to estimate on the Ax hands as he didn't specify, so I used AT+, which I think is fair, both for suited and offsuit.

I used the same range Doug used for the coldcaller, even though I think that is a little loose as well.

Anyway, it came up as 37% for the 99, 41% for the raiser, and 22% for the cold caller. So even with that range, 99 is still an equity favorite 3 ways, but personally I don't think that is enough to counter the positional disadvantage, at least for a non-expert player.

As long as we agree that half a bet in the pot in the SB, this is an easy 3 bet. I love how you think cold calling makes it easier to play with 5 possible overcards.

The turn spot is so easy because the A hits every hand you hope they have. Look at the equity hit vs full pf ranges. You go from full on favorite to 1 in 7 dog. Don't listen to me, just read zomg over and over.

Don't see what having half a bet in the pot already has to do with the decision between calling and raising.

And sure, the turn spot is easy for some people, but it wasn't for the OP. And I think that his making the marginal more aggressive play preflop led directly to that mistake.

We're also forgetting that a lot of the equity by our opponent will go unrealized. When the board runs out Q823, we bet the turn with 99, I don't think KT/KJ are going to keep calling. Or AK on a Q832 board.

This means they can be missing out on their 6outer equity a non-negligible portion of their range. This is more reason to 3bet pre. Unless of course, our opponents just close their eyes and get to the river with any two cards higher than 9x. I don't know if that's a possibility here.

God forbid! A live player may become a little more aggressive!? As everyone always says, "the biggest mistake you can make in limit holdem is being too aggressive and betting a little too much." bank rolls are destroyed that way. When you put it this its pretty clear why cold calling is the superior strategy now.

Nh, OP.

You should play to maximize your lifetime winnings. For most people with a finite number of hours they will get to play in a lifetime, it means moving up as quickly as possible to the highest stakes crushable and then spending as much time crushing it as possible.

If your expectation is to play 4/8 for the next 30 years, constantly readjusting your game as rake goes up with inflation (because small stakes are highly rake sensitive), then by all means adjust your default game to 4/8 play. But if you expect that someday you're going to get sick of watching 75%+ of your winnings go to the house, then you should move up sooner rather than waiting for the water to reach your deck before looking for the lifeboats.

And if you look around the room, it's not hard to tell who's in what group. There are people who love to talk about their past, how they used to play higher; they harp on how good the games used to be and have a million excuses (usually external) to why it's so awful now. On the other hand, there are people who look at the 200/400 table in the corner and think, "I'm gonna play that someday."

It's the second group of people that the rest of this post is addressed to.

Figuring out relative equity isn't that hard. The rule of thumb is this: you have 1:1 equity if you have the median hand in their range. If someone raises 77+, median is between TT and JJ, TT will be at a small disadvantage and JJ at a small advantage. Pairs basically have 1:1 against overcards so whether they raise KQ+ or KJ+ won't matter much (but A9+ vs AT+ might give you a percent or so).

99+ is less than 1:1 against 77+. And if 77+ is the CO's range, coldcalling is correct. But a lot of people raise 66-, and if they raise 55+, 99 is a 3-bet. So 3-betting 99 is either a small mistake at worst.

It's exactly the kind of hand you want to be overraising, one where really it's fine either way so take the more aggressive route for practice. Even if it's a small mistake, you're paying an EV of cents to play a spot that's super common at 10x the stakes.

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3-bet preflop, check-fold turn. If BTN folded the flop, I think the turn is a bluff (assuming CO calls 99-JJ on the flop and folds the turn).