Originally Posted by lawdude

I think there's some pretty bad logic in this thread.

I'm NOT saying I wouldn't call down. At game speed, I often do.

But let's think about this guy for a second. He raise-calls the flop. OP says that could mean weak ace, 2 pair, set, flush draw, or straight draw.

Now, he raises again on a turn that makes a flush and a couple of gutshot straights. In addition, one of the weaker aces (A5) got there. What do we still beat?

We have to believe that the SECOND raise, after we've already told him we have AT LEAST a big ace, is nonetheless a hand we beat. Well, I've thought about all the hands in the villain's stated range, and the only hand I can see that we beat is 45 (a double gutted straight draw on the flop that picked up a pair on the turn). And would he really be raising 45?

MOST likely, this is either A5 or a flush, and we're screwed against either one of these hands. If it isn't one of those hands, it's a stop-and-go-type play with a set or 2 pair hand that had us crushed on the flop. And note-- the LEAST likely 2-pair hands are the ones we would like him to have (because we can counterfeit them)-- 75 and 53 would not have raised the flop, and 73 probably wouldn't be in the hand at all. More likely stop-and-go plays here are 77, 33, A7, and A3.

So again, I ask: what do we beat?

Honestly, again, I call this down at game speed, but dispassionately, with time to think, this looks to me like a clear bet-fold.

Originally Posted by COCOCHANEL

I agree with above that this is mostly a hand reading exercise. I also agree that a lot of the logic above is total nonsense. I'm only calling down here against the CRAZIEST of maniacs, and then only when we're HU. You're obv beat here, and saving 2 or 3 big bets in this spot is VERY important to your overall results.

Also what's to me is that OP remarks that one of his villains is unable to fold, even when villain knows he's beat (makes crying calls on the river). But here, hero knows he's beat and couldn't make the fold. I mean, this is a SUPER coordinated board, and with 2 check raises and a 3rd player in the pot, this fold just isn't that difficult, IMO.

GL! I suspect that once you starting saving these bets, you'll move up in limits pretty quickly.

Originally Posted by lawdude

I think there's some pretty bad logic in this thread.

I'm NOT saying I wouldn't call down. At game speed, I often do.

But let's think about this guy for a second. He raise-calls the flop. OP says that could mean weak ace, 2 pair, set, flush draw, or straight draw.

Now, he raises again on a turn that makes a flush and a couple of gutshot straights. In addition, one of the weaker aces (A5) got there. What do we still beat?

We have to believe that the SECOND raise, after we've already told him we have AT LEAST a big ace, is nonetheless a hand we beat. Well, I've thought about all the hands in the villain's stated range, and the only hand I can see that we beat is 45 (a double gutted straight draw on the flop that picked up a pair on the turn). And would he really be raising 45?

MOST likely, this is either A5 or a flush, and we're screwed against either one of these hands. If it isn't one of those hands, it's a stop-and-go-type play with a set or 2 pair hand that had us crushed on the flop. And note-- the LEAST likely 2-pair hands are the ones we would like him to have (because we can counterfeit them)-- 75 and 53 would not have raised the flop, and 73 probably wouldn't be in the hand at all. More likely stop-and-go plays here are 77, 33, A7, and A3.

So again, I ask: what do we beat?

Honestly, again, I call this down at game speed, but dispassionately, with time to think, this looks to me like a clear bet-fold.

Originally Posted by BeakWetter

I fold to the turn c/r and feel pretty good about it.

Originally Posted by Grease

Me too, especially since he's passive. If you make a range for him after two check-raises I doubt we're doing super hot against it and we suffer from RIO with the possibility of a 4-flush hitting.