Great, I think a lot of ppl hit what I was thinking, which is that we are forced to let others stay in the pot because we ourselves don't have the best hand often enough to 3bet.

I think BBB renamed my post, which was originally named "butchered hand", haha.

I 3bet, another cold-call, BTN caps, 4th player cold-calls, I call. Turn: Ts. Check, I bet, 1 call, BTN raises, 4th player cold-calls, I fold (?!), 1 call.

Talk about destroying a hand. Moooooooooo.

Folding pre is really nitty. Like, if you're going to open fold A2s in a game described as loose (aggressive or passive), you're missing out on some really great marginal situations.

And I'm not going to pretend I haven't raised this once or twice or a few dozen times.

3-betting the flop is really bad. Villain overlimped BTN and has a full complement of two pairs and a lot of ace-rags with bad kickers which still beat you.

Redonking the turn after his cap is redonkulous. It puts you in the redonkulous situation where you've put in so much action that you have to fold.

"Really great marginal situations" sounds like "military intelligence" or "jumbo shrimp".

I venture no opinion as to whether open-limping or raising A2 suited UTG full ring could ever be +EV in particular game conditions. I doubt it, because of this chart:

http://www.thepokerbank.com/tools/odds-charts/ace-odds/

Basically, there's a 64 percent chance of someone else holding an ace 9 handed (and other than 9 combinations of A2, every single one of those aces will have a higher kicker and none will have a lower kicker).

But even if there is SOME edge to be had here, I doubt it's "really great". I suspect it is "marginal", at best.

In other words, folding doesn't seem nitty at all. It seems disciplined.

All depends on the definition of loose. And how consistent it is.

I've played 6-12 oaks. Regulars typically limp in with 22-TT and broadways. Weaker regs will limp in with any 2 suited, any 1-2 gappers, and ragged aces. Fishes will play ATC as long as it isn't too ugly. You occasionally see 49o and 72o flipped over on showdown. If there has been several limps, they might get timid and limp in with JJ+. Recreational non-regs see this and will follow suit. With typically 5+ players to an unraised flop everytime, A2s is too strong to muck.

I agree 100% with this.

I have played several hundred hours in the Oaks 6/12 over the years. The game can play surprisingly nitty at times, but there are definitely games in which I think you are leaving money on the table by folding pre. It's marginal, but most hands in LHE are marginal. If you are going to play it like this postflop I would certainly fold though.

Late to the party. But even in a passive game, unless you know you are going to called in 5 spots (when u raise early), unless you will fold to A high flops with no strong draws, isn't it better to RAISE pf than limp?! You should clean up Ace outs; as A2os - A9os (and maybe others) will (should) fold to an early raise? You may isolate yourself with a dominated hand, but A10+ would have been in any way . No reason to invite any ace to limp dominate you.

Thoughts? Yes they shouldnt over limp easily dominated draw poor hands, but in a limp fest they do so why encourage it? And if you only raise premium hands early pf they should easily put you on a draw, start iso raising your limps.

"Really great" modifies "situation," not "marginal."

I think this is right as far as it goes.

As I said above, there is a 64 percent chance that someone will have a stronger ace. Personally, I think that makes limping UTG a very bad, undisciplined, get-your-gamble-on, I'm too impatient to wait until I get a better situation against the fishes sort of play. You are basically going to be dominated MORE than half the time. And none of these fishes are folding an ace in a limped pot.

I don't think raising is good, exactly, but it at least attempts to do something about that 64 percent number, by folding out some hands that beat us. So I prefer it to open-limping.

The math is a bit off here because you are using the wrong probability. The table you link to is merely the probability that when you have an ace, someone else also has an ace. It does not take into account your kicker. Your point about their kicker always beating your 2 is a bit wrong, since obviously sometimes they can have A2 also. The real probability I think you meant to use is actually the probability that when you have A2, you are facing an opponent with an ace AND a better kicker, which, against 8 other opponents, is actually 60.7%

Wikipedia has a much more comprehensive table and the explanation of the math:
Probability Table Link

Folding because someone might have a better hand is like taking a friend to the prom because if you ask your crush she might turn you down.

If you raise with 88 from EP, there's a decent chance that someone has a better pair OR you end up in a horse race with two overs OR someone defends a blind and outflops you. It's pretty marginal.

The whole game of poker is about how to maximize when you're in that 30-40% and minimize when in the 60-70%.

If you want to make "disciplined" folds, do it in tight games, where being wild and crazy costs you more.

dont understand this logic, with a2suited, you either crush flop or fold. dont care how good players behind might be.

Because you won't make it to the flop. Or you play bad and call 2+ more bets. Killed either way.

So (1) we are arguing about 3 percent and (2) that 3 percent of the time, we are in bad shape (because we have two less pair outs and will chop when we hit one).

It isn't "folding because someone might have a better hand". It's folding because we are 60 percent likely to be DOMINATED and we are going to be out of position. That's a lot more than the "decent chance" that someone has a better pair or you end up in a horse race (as a FAVORITE, I might add) with someone with 2 overs or outflops (as a big UNDERDOG) you from the blind.

In limit poker, staying out of bad pre-flop situations may be the single biggest factor in one's winrate other than discipline, actually. Pre-flop matters a LOT in this game because you can't really trade mistakes like you can in no limit-- the bets are too small.

Never said your conclusion was wrong, just wanted to clarify the math.

Oh, this is LHE?

This is the "looking at the glass is half empty" side of the argument IMO. Realize that, of the times we are 60% dominated, we can still outplay our opponents or outflop them. Of the 40% when we aren't dominated, we have an equity edge and know how to capitalize it against our opponents who are playing hands like J9o/75o/T4s/etc. Hopefully, we know how to minimize our losses while maximizing our wins.

Now, with the "half-full" side of the argument, it's absolutely necessary to play marginal spots well. Obviously, this post is a great demonstration of how, if we butcher hands like this regularly, folding preflop is way better. Also, at games where people play well-postflop or are tighter pre, folding this is a must OOP.

Just wanted to point out that this hand was butchered so badly that it doesn't even matter anymore because you'll probably never make that mistake again. So in essence YOU actually didn't butcher this hand, it was the "past you" that ****ed this hand up and who gives a **** about that guy anyways!

Nah, I butcher hands all the time. It's just everyone else butchers more!

We are playing this hand when there are going to be a lot of opponents, and a one pair hand isnt going to win too often. I dont think being dominated matters too much when its really going to be a drawing hand

Assuming the conditions are right to play A2s UTG, what is the worst sc we are playing?

It matters a ton because this is limit hold 'em and we are going to be paying off, especially out of position. (Alternatively, if we aren't going to be paying off, we are going to be folding the winning hand a fair amount of time, which decreases our effective equity.)

And to answer what you are getting at with your next question, that's what distinguishes a weak ace from suited connectors. We basically have to pay off a lot of the time when we hit our ace. Whereas, we can safely fold some of our 3rd pair type hands that suited connectors make more often.

Why?

I think one of the conditions of playing A2s Utg is that you arent going to pay off with a beaten tp very often. Its gotta be a loose and fairly passive game, right?