6/12 Oaks

I have A2 in EP, table has been loose. i?

"Table is loose" is not enough of a read to decide. Or, rather, unless we have a more specific observation of something like "typically three to five players seeing a flop for one bet, with no more than one pot in five being raised preflop," then I'm going to fold this and wait for a better spot.

But in a situation where lots of players see a flop for one bet most of the time, seeing a flop for one bet with suited A2 in early position is going to be just fine.

Id also like "passive on the flop".

I posted a reply but it got deleted

Limping is bad. Limping every suited ace is too many. Maybe try limiting yourself to only limping A7s-A9s if this game is so juicy that you must absolutely limp.

I fold.

I fold unless I already had at least 2 people in front of me.

Yep, it has to be an uber limp fest all the time, like 7 players limping routinely and you're the only person raising, to open limp this confidently. Same with small pocket pairs. Two limpers in front of us, though, and this is pretty easy to just overcall.

Even if you know the table is loose/passive behind, you're going to make less when you hit something due to position. You'd want things along the lines good control of the table and knowing where the bets are coming from on your side.

A2s in EP requires the situation to be just right and you to not make post flop mistakes. I'm sure there are profitable spots to play it. This is never going to be a hugely profitable hand and the chances for you to go off the rails are real. You have to understand your BDFD outs and your BDSD which is going to be a gutter to the ignorant end. I'd prefer a small PP for most people, because it is harder to screw up having a set vs. not having a set. I think you can contrast this hand to playing it in really deep NL where making the nuts and getting whole stacks matters more, where bottom set can't really take a 400BB+ stack (you pick the DEEP part) correctly, but the nut flush can.

BTW, mods can see and undelete posts. That was how we did the ninja play alongs in micros, where people posted their comments and then deleted them. Mods could come back at the end, undelete all the comments, and then we could discuss what people said while not being influenced by others.

Fold, unless it's an ideal limpfest/bingo game. If you limp this in games with good players you're going to get killed.

What do BDFD & BDSD mean (I'm new)?

Backdoor flush/straight draw, respectively.

Ex: I defend T 9 in the BB against an MP open, and decided to x/r the J 6 3 with my BDFD and BDSD.

Backdoor flush draw.
Backdoor straight draw.

A2 on a K87 flop = BDFD (back door flush draw)

A2 on a K84 = BDSD (back door straight draw)

Make the 4 the 4 in the second flop and you have both.

A2o on a K84? I call that the nuts.

So, the reason for the thread is that he called. We say, probably not. However, what happened next?

For what it's worth, SSHE advocates playing A2s in early position for one bet in loose games, where 6 to 8 players typically see the flop.

limp or raise a2s+, k4s+, q6s+, j8s+, and all other suited connectors.

we got pot odds and it's +ev if it goes multiway. If you stove these ranges in 5+ way pots, it's likely to be over 20% equity.

I pm'd you last night explaining why I did it and included the text of your post so you could cut n paste it back as the time comes. Did you receive it?

Ok, some disagreement about preflop. Obviously table condition dependent. I didn't type out a very adequate explanation about table conditions (was doing it over my phone); hands were getting limped multiway often.

Moving on to postflop:

Reads
---------------------------
Villain: saw him go to war with J9o 3 ways on a QTx board. Has a bluffing frequency, plays too loose pre, but an ok hand reader.

Other players(f1 and f2): too loose, hate folding pairs postflop.

Recap: f1 (BB), I limp, f2 limps, 1 other limp, Villain limps BTN, blinds check.

Flop: Ad 5d 7c

I bet, f2 calls, another limper calls, villain raises, f1 coldcalls from BB.

Q: I?

Yes, calling is correct when you are in heaven


This is why playing this hand OOP sucks. Call and pray there isn't a raise behind you. It's ok to pray since you are already in heaven

What can we do but call here?

In a six-way pot with no raise preflop, here are a bunch of plausible draws on this board that other players might have. We might or might not have the best ace. The best ace and the best two-card flush divide the benefit from money that goes in on the flop here, and if we aren't the best ace we're in trouble. It looks very much like a Morton's Theorem situation, with RIO issues if we don't turn a club or spike a deuce.

Peel and evaluate the turn. I would give up if a non-deuce diamond falls, and I wouldn't be thrilled by a trey, four, six, eight, or nine. A deuce is our money card, and a club means we're seeing the river no matter what.

Turn

Donking is bad. I'd x/decide. If it's two back, easy fold. If sneaky BTN bets, x/r. If some other loose passive bets, fold.

I think you're severely over-estimating your hand here. This is not the flop we want to hit with A2cc. Any of the players left could have you beat drawing to < 3 outs. This is definitely not a b/3b, and closer to a b/f than people realise.

Maybe I've just been out of small stakes for too long, but are games really ever that loose? Sure I see 9 ways to the flop occasionally, but the average is always way less than 6.

Even in really good small stakes online games I felt that the other chart was better. Both advocate a lot of open limping, which is mostly considered bad these days.

If everyone was calling to see the flop and no one knew how to raise PF, calling A2s is probably fine, but in any game that I've actually played in, this is a fold every time.

Yes. 4-8 late night anywhere in Vegas is usually that loose.

Never open limp online is a pretty safe heuristic. Games are too aggressive and barely ever THAT loose.

Put me with the rest. You've seen the guy go to war with bad hands and the other three people in the pot are bad. It doesn't matter enough. Making it 3 bets here won't fold out anything you want to fold. You've got a bad A which is the nut worst TP and loses to their bad A's. Maybe they have a 7 and maybe s, but you have to think that poor limpers like Ax and Axs. You have top pair which is sometimes good. You flop a BDFD and a really poor BDSD. No value, no bluff, and too much equity to fold = call.

Let's re-evaluate the turn. Will the 3 to come off.