Table is uber loose passive, everyone calling each other down light, 5-6 people to a flop is common. The same ppl that limp in w/92os will limp in w/AQs because they'd "...rather see the flop first." Most will c/c with anything from 2 pair to middle pair. Doesn't matter. Everyone hand goes to showdown, usually w/3 hands being shown. So random.

Hero has tight image as I've been pretty card dead since sitting down.

V1-mid 40s huge dude with glasses, one of the only ppl showing any aggression preflop. Seems solid TAG, showing down goods in a few sizeable pots.

4 limpers, hero limps button w/A5os, bb raises, everyone calls. Pot=10sbs

Flop is 2c3c10d

Checks to V1 who bets, so I raise, hoping to push out small pairs, overs etc and see turn HU ip. Folds to V1who calls. Pot =7bb
Turn is 4c completing my wheel draw, but also completing possible fd. v1 c/r, hero......?

hand 2

Hero is BB w/AQos

6 limpers, hero raises, everyone calls. Pot=14sbs

Flop is 872 rainbow.

Hero bets because I'm a donkey and EVERYONE calls. Pot=10.5bbs
Turn 9. sb checks, hero checks, utg+1 bets... 3 ppl call.... hero...?... I guess I'm getting 14*1 on a call here, but at this point, I feel like I'm nearly drawing dead.


Thoughts?

Hand 1 is a fold preflop. On the flop, the reasons you gave for raising don't really take into account your hand, the table dynamics, and an estimate of what your outs are and the pot size. It's also important to know if you have the A, or the 5 in this case. Once the 4c comes on the turn, you can't fold so just call down.

Hand 2 good raise preflop, but I just check the flop. With 6 other players in the pot you'll need to improve to win, but you'll be getting a great price to see the turn. This flop bet is something I used to do, and for me it was an indication of not knowing what to really do in this situation, so I just bet. I think it's a classic mistake, but I don't mean that as an insult. It's just part of the learning process. Just because we raised on one street doesn't mean we automatically have to bet the next street.

hand 1 makes you as bad as everyone else pre. Playing tighter and folding very marginal hands is what makes us a winner and them less of a winner. As played you get to call down here unless another club hits.

hand 2 check and call 1, fold for 2 bets...i'd c/f turn without improvement.

hand 1: i agree with others, fold pre flop.

pre flop: A5o is not a hand that plays well in multiway pots. based on your read, which i think is pretty accurate for most players at this level, they're limping with hands that have you dominated like AQo. that means when you flop top pair with your A, you're never sure that you have the best hand since there will often be better A's in the field.

when you call with this hand, what are you hoping to flop? even when you flop a good hand, you're going to be in bad shape often. there are very few board run-outs where you even make the nuts. think about different flops and how your hand plays on those fops against 6 other players. go to this website and generate some flops. (the first 5 flops i got just now are: [TK6], [62T], [J53], [2AQ], and [J82]. do you really like your hand on any of these?)

on the button after 4 limpers you'd like to limp along with hands with good implied odds that can't really raise for value. something like 22-77, ATo-A9o, A2s-A7s, KTo-KJo, K2s-K8s, Q9o-QJo, Q8s-QTs, J9o-JTo, J9s-J7s, T8o-T9o, 97o-98o, 86o-87o, 86s-87s, 75o-76o, 74s-76s, 64o-65o, 63s-65s. this is a decent start. i probably play a few more hands, but i play pretty loosely.

flop: think about what hands a solid player is betting into a large field with. imo, he's likely to have a decent made hand like top pair+ or a strong draw. often when you raise you may not even get it hu and if you do, you're likely to be isolating yourself against a better hand range than what you currently hold. i'd rather just call and raise the turn, if your hand improves to a straight, (that's another bad thing about this hand, if you hit an A you can't really raise because you'll have a tough time knowing whether or not you have the best hand).

turn: as played, the pot is big now and i'd rather not fold a straight in a big pot facing only one opponent. it's likely villain has a better hand, but there are a few worse hands he may play this way. i would call his turn k/r and call all rivers that aren't clubs.

hand 2: don't bet the flop.

pre flop: this is good. your hand has a reasonably large equity advantage vs. the field and the more money you get them to put in the pot now, the more money you make in the long run.

flop: like zeke mentioned above, just because you've raised preflop doesn't mean it's compulsory you cbet every flop. especially vs. 6 opponents. if you cannot bet for value and a bluff is hopeless, it's best to just check. there are far too many players in this pot to bet for value, someone is very likely to have a pair or better. a bluff vs. this many players is suicidal.

think about the range of hands these players are limping with and how well they hit this board. on 892r they'll have everything from sets, two pair, top pair, middle pair, bottom pair, open ended straight draws, gut shot straight draws, back door draws, and pair draws. when you bet this flop you're laying the first caller 15:1 and he really shouldn't fold much of anything getting this price. after he calls, every subsequent opponent is getting better and better odds and should fold even less often. in these games we exploit these players by value betting relentlessly, because when given the opportunity, they will often make the mistake of calling with worse hands and/or without proper odds. betting the flop here mitigates our ability to exploit those calling mistakes and gives them the opportunity to call correctly.

turn: betting the flop has put you in this gross spot where you're getting a great price now on the turn, but you've got no idea if your outs are even live. this particular turn card is pretty bad and because of that i want to fold.

Hand 1:

Fold pre. I know it's tempting to play hands in position against bad players, but avoid the offsuit variety of hands in this spot. A5s would be justifiable.

I don't like the flop raise; I want to see turns here MW. Also, what position is Vil? Is he more likely to have Tx or a FD here?

As played, b/c turn is good. Call non-club rivers.

Hand 2:

Preflop is good. Flop is bad: Someone has a pair almost always and you're essentially charging your own 6 out weak draw. And these guys are so passive, that there's a small but non-zero chance it checks through!

Turn, well, you're getting a good price, but your pair outs may not be good. I probably peel one and donk out a rivered A or Q here, and x/f everything else. Rodeo is right that the card kind of sucks, though, but in a way this highlights the problem of bloating pots. Obviously the bigger the pot, the more we are (and should be) tempted to call light.

Hand 1.
Preflop meh. You can overlimp in position multiway hoping to spike 2pr or monster but its not gr8.

On flop no reason to raise. You want yo draw str8 cheap. You are not folding out better aces in a showdown bound game cleaning up outs. (Ok a6 to a8os no club may fold but thwy shouldnt be their any way. No flush draw folds no AcX folds. No reason to isolate beyyer hands...

On turn i raise/fold unless the guy would 3 bet raise bluff the turn. Weak flushes wont 3 bet or lead the river after my raise - so it doesnt cost you more than calling 1 each street. Why raise? I get an extra bet from the bd flush draw that semi bluffed the turn and missed the river. I can fold to most donk bets on the river after showing strength on the turn in such a passive game. And if chked to on river I can chk behind and not payoff baby flush.

2nd hand - i see no reason to pop preflop multiway. Hide your stregnth. Its not a value bet oop needing to improve with so many in already. You cant fight city hall.

*G*

I would probably fold pre here,

I would not have tried to eliminate players on the flop. If everyone is so passive when you make your wheel draw you then you can try more chips out of them. (do i sound like a huge fish when i say that?) If you get it heads up you only have 7 outs, (3aces and 4fives). If you make your aces you are going to be beating small pairs anyway so your major risk is the flush draw, and your opponents are getting odds to try for the flush by calling a raise.

On the turn/river i would check to the river if someone raises due to the flush draw, or bet if it is checked to me.

Hand 2
I like the raise pre.

I would check/fold the flop. You only have 6 outs and they only lead to top pair.

Thanks for replies, all. I was strictly a NL player for several years before starting to play limit, and I'm still adjusting (see Cbet in hand 2 lololol).

Some thoughts of my own regarding the hands and why I chose the lines that I did.

Limping w/A rag seems generally -EV, but I felt I could make better decisions post flop especially being otb. By raising V1, I force all the limpers to call 2 bets, which most are not willing to do w/o tpgk, sets, fd, in which case, I take a free card on the turn as they will almost always c/c their way to showdown with these types of hands. So when they fold I know that V1 either has jt, qt, kt, at or a fd. He would've 3 bet a set otf for sure and he would've raised any over pair pre. When he c/r the turn, he can pretty much only have a flush here in which case, he's never folding nor checking the river. The only other hand combo he might have would be like kt or at w/the kicker being a club. I subsequently folded and I think it was the best play. I guess "fold pre" would've saved me a couple bets though.

In hand 2, I suppose I could see just checking pre, but I'd rather get more money in when I have an equity edge. Betting the flop here is obviously bad, but I think there's so much in there pre that a c/c on this flop seems reasonable, and at that point c/f turn depending on where the bet comes from? I folded the turn here as well, and the A on the river checked through for AT to take the pot, where as if I had c/c two streets w/decent equity, my hand would've held up.

Am I on the right track thought wise with these? Or do I need to just play more straight forward and wait for better spots?

0/3.

Generally, the more MW you are, the less you should worry about balance, and the more you should play your hand in a vacuum against your range.

A huge leak that a lot of beginners who try to play well make is trying to hold the betting lead regardless of situation, or trying to make plays to win pots that are completely SD bound. I used to do this too; wait awhile, get KQs, raise, get five passengers, and barrel off regardless of action and players (as two people call down with bottom pair).

The vast majority of your 4/8 opposition will be of varying degrees of terrible. So just focus on value, and decide in your varying situations if there's any value to be had.

in my typical grunch then go back and read others responses style...

Hand One is a flat out fold. trashy aces just suck in big multi way pots in Lappy games I mean you need to learn to dump hands like this because playing them represents, in Gary Carson's words, "A hole bigger than the grand canyon". or in my own as A hole deeper than a oil well at the bottom of the grand canyon. I will no longer belabor this point because by now you undoubtedly get it.

Hand 2

I dig the idea of value raising this hand but I also like the Idea of reserving strategic initiative out of position. so either way Im ok with it if you are doing it for the right reason and situation and know how to deal with the ramifications of same.

I am somewhat bewildered why you feel it is necessary to c bet it when it misses. ( I know the arguments but do they really fit the game and situation you have described?)

if anything i would feel that checking with an option to check raise a LP bettor would be more fitting. my main question here is how do you intend to get money out of this pot rather than how will you get more money in.

I mean your really just bluffing in this situation and why are you trying to bluff a school of loose calling fishes? and if your going to depend on any kind of FE shouldn't you design your action to have a bit of impact?

now that Ive skimmed the other posts I dont really have anything more to add. strategy wise

However I would sternly warn against attempting to rely heavily on advanced concepts in these games. a tight aggressive value based game usually avoids the rake well gets the money. sure use the advantage of an opened positional range with good SCs, S1Gs,LPPs, AXs and BWs in it . but the main key is to make a hand or good draw and beat them with value and let their mistakes pay for the rest.

remember they don't bet enough, raise enough and call too much. So build your strat around this simple truth and they will literally throw their money into your pockets. Sure some cool spots will come up that will allow you to flex your poker prowess but mostly, I mean like 98.5% of the time, its str8fwrd VALUE based poker.