Do you have PokerStove? Try giving each of these two players a range of hands that play the same up until the turn (i.e. with what hands do they both limp preflop and call a bet on the flop?). Then you can run an equity calculation to see if you have an edge (since there are 3 players, you will need >33.33% equity to bet for value).

Coming up with ranges and then running an equity calculation will help here. It is difficult to think in terms of every individual hand and all possiblities. All you know when the turn comes is that the players have called preflop and on the flop.

Let's assume you bet, V1 raises, and V2 calls. What might help is if you come up with two ranges:
1. The range for each player before you bet.
2. The range for each player after the raise and the call.

Make sure to include all hands that would play the same way.

Thanks will do. That will keep me busy for awhile.

Kit, you make it so simple. If I bet turn and get raised then call Dow.

I will take this to the bank.

Thanks

[QUOTE=Chasqui;31429640]Mike, it sound to me like you are not considering the action on each street: V1 liked the board when the one card straight came (didnt like it before that much, didn't raise), V2 liked the board when the flush came (still a one card straight out there).

People play very straightforward in this spot. There is strong evidence that at least one of them has a one card straight or a flush so will call your river raise guaranteed and you will loose 2BB, it doesn't matter if the other player has one or two pairs.[/]

that is why I did not raise the river. Not to give my action away in the post I asked: raise or fold to start the dialogue. I called.

After the hand was over I wondered if a raise would work. From this discussion we agree not and I would be lighting money on fire every time.

SSHE: three way you don't want an over call on the river. Player bets, you raise. This hand is a variation and not on this board. In that case you need to put the bettor on a weak hand that you can beat and the player next to act on a slightly better or same hand that he would fold for two bets.

I have seen this happen. Player bets, player with a 3 raises, player folds a 3. 3 makes bottom end of a 4 card straight. Player that folded complains 'thought you had a 8'.

Rare but it does happen or it would not be in SSHE.

It looks like I misplayed the turn. Bet my sets. Call on river was fine.

Thanks

OM pre is a fair place to raise because it has set value plus it puts every one on edge why the BB pops it they dont know.

since you didnt raise, the flop is a good place to check raise doing so might make it unattractive for a lone 7 to play. he probably will still play but making him pay more for his outs is never bad. even if you did raise trying for a check raise would probably be OK. However I never fault anyone for betting with the best hand esp when it is as strong as top set. you would loved to get raised and make it 3 bets and betting out is the surest way to do so.

the turn is a kind yucky card but I dont think that is a good enough reason to check you still have top set the board is showing all kinds of draws and you should want to make them all pay before they miss and fold for free. and even if you are behind your bet may be immediately valuable.* Plus given you BB status and how you played you could actually own a 7. it is vastly more probable that you own a 7 than some one limping in ep or MP . not impossible by any means but quite a bit less probably than you having one.

vaule of raise creating dead money among those who should call 1 bet like two pair hands marriage of players to large pot when you get there w/ best hand ect.)

river there still may be a case for value betting but I would hate you get driven off a hand where I am very probably a favorite given the pot size so here I check and call and hope to be best a small (but valuable) percentage of the time.

you really are going to have a hard time showing a profit laying down big hands like sets in LHE. this may be time to do so but every time Ive held 2 pair and bet when the board showed a completed draw and some one show folded a set I felt pretty dam good about how I was viewed by that player

so all that has to happen here is

1) everyone checks to a late position guy who bets
2) there are people in the middle who hold draws you want to fold
3) said people actually fold said draws

sounds like quite a parlay with infinitesimally small chance of success.

I guess that depends on how you define success

you are check raising to get more money into the pot and to make their loose call less correct as it is hard to counterfeit outs to a full house.you are doing this much much more so than to protect a hand like top set.

if you have a one card straight draw to the nut str8 and there are more than 3 players and there is a flush on board. 2 of your outs are severely compromised. now most folks with a 7 will probably call and perhaps rightly so ( which I mentioned) but considering just the flop and the number of players contending a one card straight is probably only worth 6 outs at most. getting some one who wished to put in zero or 1 bet with a 6 out hand to put in 2 or more is a very good thing.especially when you have best hand AND best draw.

but if a random 7 does fold so much the better.

and look what happens when you k/r and one of a myriad of cards come that miss the 7. they are now even more psychologically tied to the pot their draw has become even longer because the surety of a flush being out there is higher

whatever, b/3bing is better and ensures money goes in

I agree. In spots like this (lots of players and draws) we can only 3 bet if we bet, and we also make sure the worst case scenario doesn't happen.

I like.

Out of position I like to bet the flop. It would be nice to get raised. I even donk into a pfr in the hopes that he will raise me and I can re-raise. This might not be correct but I like it, more money in the pot.

Check raise is FPS to me and I often screw it up so I don't use it much.

One thing about 3/6 is that they will call your raises and call you on he river with a worse hand.

C/R is only FPS if you have no indication anyone else is going to bet this for you.

If someone had raised PF or you see a player cutting chips for a bet to your left, then it might be time to go for a C/R. (Unless of course they are doing the old "look out I've got chips in my hand---I'm calling you sucker!")

I check raise from the blinds with a turned two pair or better if it is hidden and there is a preflop aggressor from early left. But, sometime it gets checked around.

At the lower limits (not this hand though) you may need to k/r the flop a lot more. PF raisers will cbet and call you with naked overs a lot. The turn is normally played more straight forward so will check around frequently when they miss.

Good advice.

One thing that has taken me time to do is to read players better. I will check raise as I said and I often will raise the flop if I think that the player is betting light or to try to reduce the players behind.

Most of my hands are played BB, SB, OTB, CO, HJ I tend to fold a lot 4 seats after the BB.

I'm CO and UTG3 bets I will raise any hand that I want to play other than nut draws. After a couple of checks they will bet second pair on the flop.

More aggressive LP.

I was referring to k/r the flop more when you are the BB against Pf raisers instead of donking.

Reading your replies sometimes gives me the impression we are having two monologues: my point is missed and then you mention things completely unrelated to what I said.