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Micro-Small Stakes Limit Discussions about micro-small stakes Texas Hold'em (all stakes up to around 15/30)

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Old 06-25-2008, 11:42 AM   #1
KitCloudkicker
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smoke betting

I was sweating/coaching a friend of mine at the Borg 10/20 in AC when this topic came up.

Being a rather conservative player, he sometimes was afraid to value bet big streets when scare cards showed up. Examples included cards that put up 3 card straight and 3 card flush possibilities.

The quick and easy solution to this problem is to smoke bet - i.e. bet before the next card comes out.

Use of this move is very good for multiway pots and situations in which you will never be bluffed by a worse hand. Example:

you have AJo and open raise pf from EP, and you get 4 callers.

the Flop is ATx with a flush draw. you bet and get callers.

now, on occasion, smoke bet the turn - bet it dark. the reasons:

1) there is no card you should be checking on the turn anyway.
2) you avoid giving off a tell when the turn shows up

to balance, you should do this with your monster hands and also your big draws on occassion.

another good place to smoke bet is when you have a monster and you afraid the next card will kill your action. example:

you have QQ and the board is AQ4 all spades. you bet and get called. the turn is a 4. you bet and get called.

you should now consider smoke betting the river, as if you take your time and bet when the river is spade, your opponent may chose to fold a hand such as Ax.

the other thing about smoke betting is that it confuses your opponents. they dont have as much time to react, for one. secondly, some interpret it as you "making a move" and are apt to call you down lighter. finally, you garner a more loose, aggressive image (if thats what you want).


please feel free to chime in with thoughts/experiences with smoke betting
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:48 AM   #2
mwette
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Re: smoke betting

Thanks. I have never done this but have witnessed it on a few occasions. I see how it can have value for getting people to call more lightly.
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Old 06-25-2008, 12:27 PM   #3
mikeca
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Re: smoke betting

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Originally Posted by KitCloudkicker View Post
the other thing about smoke betting is that it confuses your opponents. they dont have as much time to react, for one. secondly, some interpret it as you "making a move" and are apt to call you down lighter. finally, you garner a more loose, aggressive image (if thats what you want).


please feel free to chime in with thoughts/experiences with smoke betting
I have seen players betting in the dark a few times. They turned out to have AA or had flopped a monster. If some people interpret this as making a move, then maybe this is a technique for getting more calls. I assume it indicates a strong hand.
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Old 06-25-2008, 01:23 PM   #4
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Re: smoke betting

Kit whats your play if after you smoke bet the turn, and the turn does put a scary card up that would complete the flush/straight draw or pairs a (non-ace) and your opponent re-raises??
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Old 06-25-2008, 01:31 PM   #5
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Re: smoke betting

I am much more likely to dark but the turn if the river can complete a draw that makes a strong 2nd best hand. Your QQ example is a good one - you will often get raised and be able to 3 bet.
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Old 06-25-2008, 01:31 PM   #6
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Re: smoke betting

I have bet right before the turn card or river card is turned up so I guess this is a presmoke bet. Sometimes I have gotten folds from weaker hands that may have called a bet in reg action tempo when they have had time to think a bit and were on da fence about calling a bet.

Quote:
the other thing about smoke betting is that it confuses your opponents
It surely can

So we can then safely BetDark/Fold more easily than a plain Bet/fold I assume with certain players?
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Old 06-25-2008, 02:11 PM   #7
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Re: smoke betting

Quote:
Originally Posted by KitCloudkicker View Post
Example:

you have AJo and open raise pf from EP, and you get 4 callers.

the Flop is ATx with a flush draw. you bet and get callers.

now, on occasion, smoke bet the turn - bet it dark. the reasons:

1) there is no card you should be checking on the turn anyway.
2) you avoid giving off a tell when the turn shows up
I don't want to enter into a larger discussion of dark betting -- at least not now -- but I do want to highlight a couple things about your example and your second point in particular.

-If you are the type to have tells, it seems to me that you're just as likely as to given them off when you hit a pair on the flop. Actually betting the flop is kind of a tell, too, isn't it? Unless you have some sort of weird "that turn card did not pair my kicker tell," I don't see the utility of this, particularly when...

-By betting dark, you forfeit the opportunity to use your opponents' tells against them.
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Old 06-25-2008, 02:42 PM   #8
jesse8888
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Re: smoke betting

Has anyone ever pulled off the smoke-check/raise? This white girl I've seen playing the 80 was at my table last night, she raised the Cutoff and I defended my big blind with A 5. I've seen her play and she's quite good (perhaps posts on here)...

Anyway I checked dark and when I did I saw her reach for chips even though the flop wasn't out yet...she didn't actually bet til she saw the cards, but if she had, would it be possible for me to check/raise back dark? Just a thought.

In the hand in question with 2 black paints on board i just folded and felt silly....
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Old 06-25-2008, 03:18 PM   #9
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Re: smoke betting

This can also work when you raise btf and intend to cbet requardless of the flop. I have found that, more often than not, someone at the table will comment that you are betting your AA. I certainly don't do this often but will do it with any hand that I had raised with.

Is this theory the same as a dark (smoke) check?
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Old 06-25-2008, 07:15 PM   #10
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Re: smoke betting

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Originally Posted by jesse8888 View Post
Has anyone ever pulled off the smoke-check/raise?
I once considered it when I checked dark and my opponent bet dark on the river, but I decided to just call dark.
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Old 06-25-2008, 08:13 PM   #11
Coelacanth
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Re: smoke betting

I really think the benefits of dark betting are vastly overstated. Basically you're hoping your opponent is this strange mix of good and bad such that confusing them will change their usually decent play into something significantly worse. In return, you're leaking information by dark betting some hands and not others, and in general people are pretty bad at balancing these kinds of actions. Certainly I've done it before when I've wanted calls, but it's super-exploitive (and exploitable) and I'm not going to try to claim it's actually good - it's really just more or a fun thing to do to regulars. Against some very special tables where everybody's good and knows what's going on I might dark bet in situations where everybody knows what's going on. For example, I raise UTG, only BB defends and checks dark, I can bet dark, but if there's even a tiny chance that doing so will suddenly make somebody realize that my c-bet range is 100% in a given situation, it can't be good.

Also, dark c/r on the flop is pretty horrible.
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Old 06-25-2008, 08:41 PM   #12
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Re: smoke betting

Thing is, many times you should be checkraising.
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Old 06-25-2008, 08:45 PM   #13
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Re: smoke betting

Also, smoke-betting?

Really? Really? That's what you want to call this thing?
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Old 06-25-2008, 09:04 PM   #14
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Re: smoke betting

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Also, smoke-betting?

Really? Really? That's what you want to call this thing?
East coast represent!
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Old 06-25-2008, 09:08 PM   #15
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Re: smoke betting

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East coast represent!
I'm gonna mist the river.
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Old 06-25-2008, 09:12 PM   #16
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Re: smoke betting

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Originally Posted by bisonbison View Post
I'm gonna mist the river.
You can smoke a check too!
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Old 06-25-2008, 09:29 PM   #17
Al Mirpuri
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Re: smoke betting

I love the term "smoke betting". Is it regional? When did it originate?

Thanks in advance.
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:16 PM   #18
danderso8
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Re: smoke betting

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Originally Posted by Al Mirpuri View Post
I love the term "smoke betting". Is it regional? When did it originate?

Thanks in advance.
Around here (socal), I've only heard this referred to as "dark betting".

When I hear the term "smoke bet", I tend to think it means bet very quickly, regardless of whether it's in the dark or light (which is of course, not to say betting light...heh). I don't have any idea whether anyone uses the term this way, that's just how i would interpret it the first time I heard it.

--Dan
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:40 PM   #19
jesse8888
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Re: smoke betting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coelacanth View Post
I really think the benefits of dark betting are vastly overstated. Basically you're hoping your opponent is this strange mix of good and bad such that confusing them will change their usually decent play into something significantly worse. In return, you're leaking information by dark betting some hands and not others, and in general people are pretty bad at balancing these kinds of actions. Certainly I've done it before when I've wanted calls, but it's super-exploitive (and exploitable) and I'm not going to try to claim it's actually good - it's really just more or a fun thing to do to regulars. Against some very special tables where everybody's good and knows what's going on I might dark bet in situations where everybody knows what's going on. For example, I raise UTG, only BB defends and checks dark, I can bet dark, but if there's even a tiny chance that doing so will suddenly make somebody realize that my c-bet range is 100% in a given situation, it can't be good.

Also, dark c/r on the flop is pretty horrible.
I've never actually dark bet and pretty much agree with everything you said. However I do think a dark check/raise would be hilarious and actually think my situation from mid stakes (defending your bb against a good hand reading tag with AKo) might be a possible candidate....basically you check-raise any flop instead of 3-betting and leading any flop. Course, you've gotta check dark, then he's gotta bet dark...pretty hard to pull off.
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Old 06-26-2008, 05:43 AM   #20
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Re: smoke betting

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Originally Posted by jesse8888 View Post
I've never actually dark bet and pretty much agree with everything you said. However I do think a dark check/raise would be hilarious and actually think my situation from mid stakes (defending your bb against a good hand reading tag with AKo) might be a possible candidate....basically you check-raise any flop instead of 3-betting and leading any flop. Course, you've gotta check dark, then he's gotta bet dark...pretty hard to pull off.
I'm fairly sure I know the villain you were talking about as well, and if it's who I think it is, her husband pointed out to me tonight that a 80 regular who plays well and is currently in a 20 game is basically the last person you want to try to pull this on. Just sayin'.
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Old 06-26-2008, 11:31 AM   #21
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Re: smoke betting

/lc

We have an older ESL gentleman at our regular table who in first position will routinely wait to see the flop, study it and then finally tap the table and say "check in the dark". It always makes me smile.

/lc
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Old 06-26-2008, 12:27 PM   #22
mwette
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Re: smoke betting

I have been at a table someone in LP bets the flop. And before the turn this EP player says to the LP better "I check raise to you". The cards came out, he checked, LP bet, and EP raises.
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Old 06-26-2008, 12:44 PM   #23
Al Mirpuri
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Re: smoke betting

Quote:
Originally Posted by mwette View Post
I have been at a table someone in LP bets the flop. And before the turn this EP player says to the LP better "I check raise to you". The cards came out, he checked, LP bet, and EP raises.
This is a clever double-bluff if EP had the goods. I take it he did?
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Old 06-26-2008, 12:59 PM   #24
jesse8888
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Re: smoke betting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coelacanth View Post
I'm fairly sure I know the villain you were talking about as well, and if it's who I think it is, her husband pointed out to me tonight that a 80 regular who plays well and is currently in a 20 game is basically the last person you want to try to pull this on. Just sayin'.
agreed.
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Old 06-26-2008, 01:53 PM   #25
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Re: smoke betting

Term-HU, checking the river to your opponent on your imm left who bets and you almost beat him into the pot with a C/R? Smoky Super Sessy? I pulled this off last night.
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