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Old 05-08-2017, 12:36 PM   #1
DalTXColtsFan
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Showing in friendly, loose, easy games

The general mentality is "never, ever, ever show when you don't have to". I can see the merit to that, but I'm wondering if there aren't exceptions.

I could argue that at a loose, passive, friendly, easy game, it would be beneficial to never show a bluff but occasionally show the nuts when they fold. My reasoning for occasionally showing the nuts is it makes the bad player feel good about having made the correct fold, keeps them happy, and KEEPS THEM PLAYING. Showing a bluff would be counter to this - the bad player would feel stupid about having felt duped and would play more carefully from that point forward (yes, it could have the opposite effect of making them call down more, but then when their calldown was incorrect they'd get even more frustrated).

Is there any legitimacy to the thought that there's actually value to occasionally showing the nuts to keep bad players at the table and happy?
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Old 05-08-2017, 12:59 PM   #2
jdr0317
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Re: Showing in friendly, loose, easy games

If you won't be exploited by what you show, it's perfectly okay to.

Ex:

You open AA and like 4 people call

A66

You bet and one guy calls

8

You bet and he folds.

Nothing wrong with saying "hold on, I check" once the hand is over and revealing your AA. "He likes to raise AA and bet when he flops a full house" isn't exactly newsworthy.
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Old 05-08-2017, 01:16 PM   #3
Aaron W.
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Re: Showing in friendly, loose, easy games

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Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan View Post
Is there any legitimacy to the thought that there's actually value to occasionally showing the nuts to keep bad players at the table and happy?
Yes. Show things that either reveal nothing interesting or things that confirm the image you want to have (loose, bad, whatever).

The reasons people give for not showing are usually kind of paranoid or bad logic at the low stakes.
* "They will have extra information!" -- Sure. But will they do anything useful with it?
* "Make them pay for the information!" -- This *totally* is the type of image you want to project at the table.
* "They'll adjust to your play!" -- At low stakes? It's pretty much not going to happen.

One thing I would do at a tight-passive table (see $10/20 Hold'em at the Mirage in its waning years), is to fold bad hands on the button face up if the blinds chopped. This reinforced the idea that I don't raise from late unless I actually had something, which pegs me as more of a straight-forward player. I also made comments about being lucky/on a rush if I'm raising a lot, and try to show a strong hand (if possible) to "prove" that I'm not just going aggro.

That being said, you don't ever NEED to show anyone anything you're not obligated to show them. If for whatever reason you don't want to do it, then don't do it. But it's not like showing a hand every now and then is a terrible thing to do.
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Old 05-08-2017, 01:17 PM   #4
dead.money
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Re: Showing in friendly, loose, easy games

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Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan View Post
The general mentality is "never, ever, ever show when you don't have to". I can see the merit to that, but I'm wondering if there aren't exceptions.

I could argue that at a loose, passive, friendly, easy game, it would be beneficial to never show a bluff but occasionally show the nuts when they fold. My reasoning for occasionally showing the nuts is it makes the bad player feel good about having made the correct fold, keeps them happy, and KEEPS THEM PLAYING. Showing a bluff would be counter to this - the bad player would feel stupid about having felt duped and would play more carefully from that point forward (yes, it could have the opposite effect of making them call down more, but then when their calldown was incorrect they'd get even more frustrated).

Is there any legitimacy to the thought that there's actually value to occasionally showing the nuts to keep bad players at the table and happy?
Wouldn't worry about giving away anything lmao, and as far as keeping everyone at table happy....if you're playing right then you're most likely raising waaay more than anyone else, eventually tha'ts going to piss table off...so If you're playing right they will be unhappy with you anyway. Show ur bluffs and your monsters good advertising. They will think your bluffing when your not and think your good when your bluffing...the more info you give them...the more confused they get.
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Old 05-08-2017, 03:19 PM   #5
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Re: Showing in friendly, loose, easy games

I agree with Aaron's post.

More generally, it may be helpful to think about things you shouldn't show in a low stakes game (such as typical bad beats, successful bluffs, etc.) rather than what you should show.
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Old 05-08-2017, 03:27 PM   #6
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Re: Showing in friendly, loose, easy games

My best friend shows me about 65% of his hands when he doesn't have to show me. He would do this no matter if I play along or not. So I play along and show him lots of hands with no apparent rhyme or reason.

Why should showing friendly strangers be any different?

On the other hand, I would never show in a hostile game.
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Old 05-08-2017, 04:15 PM   #7
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Re: Showing in friendly, loose, easy games

To add onto Aaron's post, there should be an unbalanced set of things you don't show which will manipulate your opponent into thinking your range looks very different.

Say you have 3/5 strong hands, 1/5 marginal hands, and 1/5 bluffs. You can show your strong hands all the time (and will often need to in order to claim the pot) and it doesn't change that you mostly have strong hands. But you can additionally show all your bluffs and claim (or let them assume) the 1/5 you didn't show are bluffs. Then they think you bluff twice as much as you do. Alternatively, you can not show any of your bluffs unless you need to, and unecessarily show marginal hands, and give the impression you bluff less than you actually do.
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Old 05-08-2017, 10:16 PM   #8
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Re: Showing in friendly, loose, easy games

I show like every single hand, people like to see them (unless it's the rare hand where I think somebody may learn something, then I don't). But most hands are incredibly standard and it never hurts to show.

Expect I'm not gonna show bluffs vs randoms or people that would get upset. Only cs friends or people that will go on raging tilt
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Old 05-09-2017, 12:53 AM   #9
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Re: Showing in friendly, loose, easy games

You should unnecessarily show bluffs to people who think you bluff too much.
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Old 05-09-2017, 01:18 AM   #10
Aaron W.
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Re: Showing in friendly, loose, easy games

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Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
To add onto Aaron's post, there should be an unbalanced set of things you don't show which will manipulate your opponent into thinking your range looks very different.

Say you have 3/5 strong hands, 1/5 marginal hands, and 1/5 bluffs. You can show your strong hands all the time (and will often need to in order to claim the pot) and it doesn't change that you mostly have strong hands. But you can additionally show all your bluffs and claim (or let them assume) the 1/5 you didn't show are bluffs. Then they think you bluff twice as much as you do. Alternatively, you can not show any of your bluffs unless you need to, and unecessarily show marginal hands, and give the impression you bluff less than you actually do.
I agree on the principle, but the bolded feels like you're completely overthinking it. There's no way that they actually think you bluff twice as much as you do as a result of only showing your 20% bluffs.

If you asked the average low stakes player to estimate the frequency with which you have a strong hand or a bluff, you'll end up with something that adds up to 120% or some nonsense like that. I'm exaggerating, but people are really bad at making probability estimates and there's pretty much no way they're doing calculations like what you're suggesting. I'll bet they can't even remember the last two hands you showed down.

If you want to get called down more, all you need is one incident that you bluffed them that they can remember. If they're tight and you want them to fold, just flashing the goods once will push them further into that pigeonhole. It's all about about leveraging the availability heuristic and confirmation bias.
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Old 05-09-2017, 11:06 AM   #11
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Re: Showing in friendly, loose, easy games

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Originally Posted by dead.money View Post
if you're playing right then you're most likely raising waaay more than anyone else, eventually tha'ts going to piss table off...
What usually happens to me when I'm the only player at the table who raises :

I raise AQ and get either coldcalled or limpcalled, flop an A, bet and get called on all 3 streets, flip over AQ, villain flips over AK and shoots me a smug grin "I ropeadoped you sucker!" hahaha!
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Old 05-09-2017, 11:10 AM   #12
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Re: Showing in friendly, loose, easy games

I'm on the app and can't tell what you've bolded, but obviously the example was purely hypothetical and I think we agree.

At any time, there's an optimal percentage of time you should be bluffing. There are some who think you bluff more than you do, and you should reinforce that by showing more bluffs than you show to someone who thinks you bluff too little. Note that you will actually bluff less against someone who thinks you bluff too much so taking every opportunity to reinforce those bluffs that you do run is fine IMO.
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Old 05-09-2017, 12:24 PM   #13
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Re: Showing in friendly, loose, easy games

I show hands ~15% of the time, both strong hands and bluffs. I do it to seem to be more like the average player than some of the other players that are trying to win in the game that will never show and I think it gets me more action. 'Did you have it?' Sure, go ahead and show sometimes and when they 'complain' that you won't show next time just say 'you don't expect me to show every time, do you?'

This works out well for me.
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Old 05-09-2017, 12:40 PM   #14
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Re: Showing in friendly, loose, easy games

When I 3-bet light and win without showdown then I don't ever show, because I'd like people to think I'm 3-betting AQ+ or something.

I normally do show when I have basically the nuts.

If I show one card (and it's always the one that matters, I don't needle people by exposing a 4 on an ace-high board or anything like that) and someone demands to see the other card, they've lost the rights to see any future hands.
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Old 05-09-2017, 03:11 PM   #15
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Re: Showing in friendly, loose, easy games

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Originally Posted by Howard Beale View Post
I show hands ~15% of the time, both strong hands and bluffs. I do it to seem to be more like the average player than some of the other players that are trying to win in the game that will never show and I think it gets me more action. 'Did you have it?' Sure, go ahead and show sometimes and when they 'complain' that you won't show next time just say 'you don't expect me to show every time, do you?'

This works out well for me.
I basically never show anything I don't have to and I'm the guy that frequently gets four cold callers in a game that is otherwise lacking in action. I think I'm generally liked in my main card room, but man, do they love to try and beat me.
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Old 05-09-2017, 03:29 PM   #16
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Re: Showing in friendly, loose, easy games

I only show very obvious hands or only to really good friends.
Why give free lessons to strangers...
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Old 05-09-2017, 04:37 PM   #17
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Re: Showing in friendly, loose, easy games

In a game like this I think it is very beneficial to show some strong hands where every one folds. 1) Keeps things friendly , the friendlier the game is the better both for profitability and enjoyment. Also, keeps losing players coming back to play the next day which is important. Just a general friendly demeanor is a great skill to have for any limit player trying to keep a regular game going.
2) Reinforces a solid tight image which may allow you to take down a hand where you bluffing or semi-bluffing later.

Great post I think not enough people are playing for sheer enjoyment and anything a winning player does to make the game more attractive to break even or losing players is beneficial for all.
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Old 05-09-2017, 04:48 PM   #18
dead.money
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Re: Showing in friendly, loose, easy games

LMAO!!!!!!!!! you guys are truly amusing! So do you not raise when you should to keep things friendly? How long do you think things are going to stay friendly if your punishing the people limping 95% of their hands. And you can't seriously think they are sitting there paying that close of attention to the hands you show at least not on the level of...ranges or balance. but hey what do I know SMH!
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Old 05-09-2017, 05:01 PM   #19
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Re: Showing in friendly, loose, easy games

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight View Post
I basically never show anything I don't have to
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
I only show very obvious hands
I suspect you guys are underestimating the number of cases these two rules encompass.

Most of the time, if you have cards in front of you, you have a good hand. And most of the time, when you have a good hand, you're making an obvious decision to bet or raise. And when you are the last aggressor, you are required to show.

If you show every time you are the last aggressor and every time you have an obvious hand, that's a lot of the time.

If you're playing in a loose-passive game and betting as thinly as you should, you additionally show up with the second best hand an awful lot. Like if you're winning 90% of your showdowns you're not betting thinly enough and if you're calling with the best hand 90% of the time you're calling, you're calling too much and/or not raising enough.
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Old 05-09-2017, 05:28 PM   #20
Aaron W.
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Re: Showing in friendly, loose, easy games

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Why give free lessons to strangers...
It all depends on what you've taught them.
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Old 05-09-2017, 05:33 PM   #21
Aaron W.
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Re: Showing in friendly, loose, easy games

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Originally Posted by dead.money View Post
How long do you think things are going to stay friendly if your punishing the people limping 95% of their hands.
It can be friendly for a good long time if you're doing it right. Are you not doing it right?

Quote:
And you can't seriously think they are sitting there paying that close of attention to the hands you show at least not on the level of...ranges or balance.
They're not paying that close attention. That's kind of the whole point.

Quote:
but hey what do I know SMH!
That's a fair question to ask. What do you know?
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Old 05-09-2017, 05:40 PM   #22
dead.money
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Re: Showing in friendly, loose, easy games

It can be friendly for a good long time if you're doing it right. Are you not doing it right?

How so? I like how you completely IGNORED my point and then responded With an idiotic question! What is "doing it right"! And once again, how do you maintain a friendly environment if your constantly raising the limpers? O I guess you smile when you raise LMAO!

They're not paying that close attention. That's kind of the whole point.


EXACTLY!!!!!! so why the hell would you be worried about showing your hand!

That's a fair question to ask. What do you know?
Obviously more than you...but WHAT do you know? Kinda of a DUMB question right! I mean are you supposed to list all you know?
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Old 05-09-2017, 05:54 PM   #23
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Re: Showing in friendly, loose, easy games

A friendly environment has pretty much nothing to the amount of raising going on. I have always raised a lot; when playing smaller games I am almost always the person raising the most, but no one reacts in an unfriendly way about it.
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Old 05-09-2017, 07:27 PM   #24
Omahaisbetter
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Re: Showing in friendly, loose, easy games

I am showing about 33 pct of my hands from top pair top kicker to the nuts when I have been heads up in a pot and villain folds turn or river. I am only giving out info I want them to have that will be used later in the session or another day. I rarely show bluffs but when I do its against a strong player who I think is able to laugh it off. Never try to show up a weaker player or someone is already calling down with 3rd pair consistently.
In these type of games I like to re raise as often as possible in late position 9 10 suited thru aces. If I am caught bluffing I just make sure and say nice hand, never criticize a weak player. I will utilize the info I have given my opponents against them much more effectively then they will.
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Old 05-09-2017, 08:23 PM   #25
Aaron W.
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Re: Showing in friendly, loose, easy games

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Originally Posted by dead.money View Post
It can be friendly for a good long time if you're doing it right. Are you not doing it right?

How so? I like how you completely IGNORED my point and then responded With an idiotic question! What is "doing it right"! And once again, how do you maintain a friendly environment if your constantly raising the limpers? O I guess you smile when you raise LMAO!
Based on your response here, the odds are good that you lack some of the basic social skills that allow you to raise and not make everyone angry. I seem to be able to do it just fine, as do many others.

Quote:
They're not paying that close attention. That's kind of the whole point.


EXACTLY!!!!!! so why the hell would you be worried about showing your hand!
Nobody here is "worried" about it. There's a difference between paying "close" attention and paying "no" attention. As I've noted previously, you're really just looking for one or two hands to stick in their mind so that they fall victim to the availability heuristic, and then you can maintain that image fairly easily by using confirmation bias.

Quote:
That's a fair question to ask. What do you know?

Obviously more than you...but WHAT do you know? Kinda of a DUMB question right! I mean are you supposed to list all you know?
You tell me. You're the one who asked the question. I merely repeated it back to you.
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