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Old 02-04-2015, 01:49 AM   #151
mikeca
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesse8888 View Post
mikeca,

First of all hey how's it going? I'd never fold any pocket pair in the game described for 1 bet. If UTG straddled I'd likely cold call 22.
I"m doing ok. Don't get as much a chance to play as I use to, since the old Garden City morphed to the M8trix. I have usually been playing smaller pairs than 55 from middle position, but games are usually more aggressive than this table was at this time.

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Originally Posted by jesse8888 View Post
Also the limp reraiser does not have a group 1 hand. Nobody smoovs those after two limps
The limp re-raiser seemed like the kind of really bad player that fit the limp/re-raise AA profile. He had not been doing much raising preflop. Of course he could just have been re-raising something crazy to build a big pot. Although he called the river on a scary board, he did not show, so I don't really know what he had. AA/KK would make sense. Some other crazy hands would make sense too.
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Old 02-04-2015, 10:15 AM   #152
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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Naw, I was just disagreeing with your blanket statement. I've seen it... recently... multiple times... but overall it's super rare. And a limp along three bet is not a hand I fear. Ever.

Obviously we rather they have QQ+, AK vs 87s.
Thank you kindly
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Old 02-04-2015, 11:30 PM   #153
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

5-handed 20/40

Loose passive limps, weak tight limps, hero completes K4o in SB. TAGfish raises BB, limpers call, hero folds.

Standard?
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Old 02-05-2015, 05:07 AM   #154
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mubsy Bogues View Post
5-handed 20/40

Loose passive limps, weak tight limps, hero completes K4o in SB. TAGfish raises BB, limpers call, hero folds.

Standard?
Well you've had two answers, both different, so I thought I'd tip the scale. I'd call both times.
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Old 02-05-2015, 11:34 AM   #155
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mubsy Bogues View Post
5-handed 20/40

Loose passive limps, weak tight limps, hero completes K4o in SB. TAGfish raises BB, limpers call, hero folds.

Standard?
Perhaps do some equilab work on the ranges in each situation, and we can start from H/C equity POV. Even given the same pot odds, maybe the equity has changed by an amazing amount. We can also talk about playability differences, but starting with just H/C is good.
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Old 02-05-2015, 11:38 AM   #156
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Re: K4o in the small blind

I'd call the raise. I'll fold stuff like T3o-, 94o-, 83o-, 72o but that's it.
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Old 02-05-2015, 12:55 PM   #157
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

The result is whatever. The thought process to get there matters, and could be good or bad for K4o (in his case) and for T3o-, 94o-, 83o-, 72o (in your example).

From my POV, it is hard to memorize exact hands in exact spots and maybe not that worthwhile. It is possible to come up with a good/consistent strategy. "I fold hands that have less than this much equity" or "I fold hands that are now crushed by this strong range, even if the calling equity is this close". With good feel for equity and ranges, I think I have some chance at applying those at the table at game speed.
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Old 02-06-2015, 08:43 AM   #158
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Live 9 handed 20/40

Lag opens CO, TAG 3 bets SB.........folded to me in BB....The Tag is aware of how wide the CO range is and sees me as tight.

What do you do with these hands? Tc8c, KTo, A9o, 22......if these are Folds, what would be the minimum for you to play? If would call with worse please indicate that as well.

Thanks!
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Old 02-06-2015, 04:03 PM   #159
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I'd call something like: 22+, A6s+, ATo+, K9s+, KJo+, QTs+, J9s+, T9s.

I'd have to witness the guy's spew potential to both call wider and have a capping range preflop.
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Old 02-06-2015, 04:14 PM   #160
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mubsy Bogues View Post
5-handed 20/40

Loose passive limps, weak tight limps, hero completes K4o in SB. TAGfish raises BB, limpers call, hero folds.

Standard?
You have a king!!!!! And the relative button. Never fold.
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Old 02-12-2015, 12:55 AM   #161
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Hey:

I just discovered this thread so, i'm reposting my question here as it's a more appropriate place.

Suppose you're playing 8/16 with a bunch of loose and passive players. You raise two loose limpers from the HJ to with KQo. The CO calls, BTN 3 bets, blinds fold, one of the limpers caps it, and the other limper cold calls the cap. Assumptions:
I expect the BTN to have a pretty narrow range of hands he 3 bets: AA,KK and sometimes AK, QQ.
I expect the limper/capper to have a much wider range, because limping and capping is what gamble-gamble players sometimes do.
I expect the limper who cold called the cap to have a narrower range of hands (suited and big aces, broadway, pairs, sc, occasionally some suited trash).
I expect the CO to call.

Currently, if I raise I never fold pre-flop to a 3 bet or cap in a limit game, as I'm usually going to be getting good odds: 9/1 in this case. If I flop a gut shot or better, and the flop action isn't insane, I'm continuing. But truth be told, it seems like my outs are probably taken and my hand is kinda toast vs the BTN 3 betting range. Would it ever be considered correct to fold pre-flop in this situation?
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Old 02-12-2015, 08:42 AM   #162
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by San Hoser View Post
Hey:

I just discovered this thread so, i'm reposting my question here as it's a more appropriate place.

Suppose you're playing 8/16 with a bunch of loose and passive players. You raise two loose limpers from the HJ to with KQo. The CO calls, BTN 3 bets, blinds fold, one of the limpers caps it, and the other limper cold calls the cap. Assumptions:
I expect the BTN to have a pretty narrow range of hands he 3 bets: AA,KK and sometimes AK, QQ.
I expect the limper/capper to have a much wider range, because limping and capping is what gamble-gamble players sometimes do.
I expect the limper who cold called the cap to have a narrower range of hands (suited and big aces, broadway, pairs, sc, occasionally some suited trash).
I expect the CO to call.

Currently, if I raise I never fold pre-flop to a 3 bet or cap in a limit game, as I'm usually going to be getting good odds: 9/1 in this case. If I flop a gut shot or better, and the flop action isn't insane, I'm continuing. But truth be told, it seems like my outs are probably taken and my hand is kinda toast vs the BTN 3 betting range. Would it ever be considered correct to fold pre-flop in this situation?
It seems by your description that your expecting the button to mostly have AA or KK. If this is the case you should fold. Obviously you would have to flop big and even then you may encounter RIO.

If he does have QQ's, or AK in his range it becomes a close decision. Further complicating things would be if the limp/capper tends to c bet often. It could get ugly having to act before the button.

If the buttons range is truly that tight I think folding would be prudent.
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Old 02-12-2015, 10:49 AM   #163
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I can't imagine folding 5 ways here is correct unless the button showed you kings.
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Old 02-12-2015, 12:08 PM   #164
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Could San Hoser or mongidig pull out equilab, put the villains on ranges, and post what the hot/cold equity looks like in this spot?
Quote:
If this is the case you should fold. Obviously you would have to flop big and even then you may encounter RIO.
While it is certainly true that H/C equity isn't the whole answer, the quote above seems to lack that starting point. Based on the ranges you pick, it could be that snap folding is correct. I'll put in the early prediction that most ranges won't yield that result from the get-go.

Quote:
seems like my outs are probably taken and my hand is kinda toast vs the BTN 3 betting range. Would it ever be considered correct to fold pre-flop in this situation?
You could also look at which hands most hate these strong ranges. What hands that are considered equivalent to your holding (or even worse hands) are happier with narrow, well defined strong hand ranges?
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Old 02-12-2015, 12:30 PM   #165
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
live 9 handed 8/16.

UTG +2 opens..he seems to be a TAG, folded to unknown button who calls, folded to us in BB.

What do you do with these hands?

Q6s
9To
34s
My gut said muck all 3, but they look to have low-mid 20s equity vs top 10 and top 1/3. Getting 5 to 1, call.
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Old 02-12-2015, 02:35 PM   #166
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by San Hoser View Post
My gut said muck all 3, but they look to have low-mid 20s equity vs top 10 and top 1/3. Getting 5 to 1, call.
All easy calls
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Old 02-12-2015, 03:56 PM   #167
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL View Post
Could San Hoser or mongidig pull out equilab, put the villains on ranges, and post what the hot/cold equity looks like in this spot?

While it is certainly true that H/C equity isn't the whole answer, the quote above seems to lack that starting point. Based on the ranges you pick, it could be that snap folding is correct. I'll put in the early prediction that most ranges won't yield that result from the get-go.

You could also look at which hands most hate these strong ranges. What hands that are considered equivalent to your holding (or even worse hands) are happier with narrow, well defined strong hand ranges?
Here's the sim i used. I added to loose calling ranges and a stronger range for the limpers and cold callers. I'm assuming a fairly tight 3 betting range as thats what I expect in this game. So I obviously have odds to call, but the spot seems kind of ****ty.

PokerCruncher-Advanced-iPhone V.8.1.1

(Equity, Win, Tie)
Player 1: 6.64:1 7.04:1 64.8:1 {KQo}
Player 2: 1.82:1 1.88:1 53.8:1 {QQ+, AKs, AKo}
Player 3: 4.73:1 5.00:1 53.0:1 {22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, 53s+, 43s, 32s, A2o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo} [typical 8/16 cold call]
Player 4: 4.73:1 5.00:1 53.8:1 {22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, 53s+, 43s, 32s, A2o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo} [typical 8/16 cold call]
Player 5: 5.05:1 5.37:1 50.6:1 {TT-22, AJs-A2s, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, AQo-A2o, KTo+, QTo+}

Board: [? ? ? ? ?]
Deal To: River
Dead Cards: {}
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Old 02-12-2015, 05:48 PM   #168
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

^ These results don't look like anything I have seen posted here before, can't even find where hero's equity is shown.
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Old 02-12-2015, 05:53 PM   #169
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

In NL you snap fold, so it is really the nature of LHE that sticks you here. Even giving a guy super premiums, it is hard to fold. You're getting this big overlay to call on the initial bet. To my mind, there are two things that might make you want to give up even with the overlay.

You can never really have it go that we flop the best hand and know it. Throw AQs in the mix for the 3 betting guy, and every pair you flop can be an underpair and dominated. The only hand you can hit is a straight and be nutty. If the villain had exactly AA, you'd at least know what to suck out on. Flop here comes KQ4r, you go how many bets? Not that many.

The other thing would be with your marginal winning flops if you knew the villains would just relentlessly drive the action -- no hand you flop is going to love that. If the 3! guy can make you suffer with the help of the back-capper on a lot of boards, flopping a Q and hoping to beat JJ or TT (I know, not in your range, but you'd hope) stinks. This is different than playing 55 where you flop a set on a 9 high board and hope to get action.

So, you've got what. 2 to call in a 25 bet pot? That's a huge overlay to write off. I guess it depends on how sure you are that the three bettor isn't bored/angry/someone who re-raises JTs because of something he saw on a WPT broadcast.

Quote:
^ These results don't look like anything I have seen posted here before, can't even find where hero's equity is shown.
Hero's a 6.64:1 dog, I believe.
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Old 02-12-2015, 06:01 PM   #170
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by San Hoser View Post
My gut said muck all 3, but they look to have low-mid 20s equity vs top 10 and top 1/3. Getting 5 to 1, call.
All three hands have an equity of about 23% in the conditions you give. If you call, the pot will be $48-$5=$43. 23% of that is $9.89. It costs you $8 to realize that equity, so you are playing to get $1.89. Assuming you will tip $1, you are trying to get $0.89, based on H/C equity. For a good pro, this may be worthwhile. For most of us, given that H/C equity is not the end of the story, I doubt it.
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Old 02-12-2015, 06:16 PM   #171
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
^ These results don't look like anything I have seen posted here before, can't even find where hero's equity is shown.
Sorry man, I was at work (still am ... ) and I had to post it quick. Doug is right my odds are 6.64 to 1. I use that format as its easier for me to think about the call in relation to the bets than use %.
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Old 02-12-2015, 06:24 PM   #172
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
All three hands have an equity of about 23% in the conditions you give. If you call, the pot will be $48-$5=$43. 23% of that is $9.89. It costs you $8 to realize that equity, so you are playing to get $1.89. Assuming you will tip $1, you are trying to get $0.89, based on H/C equity. For a good pro, this may be worthwhile. For most of us, given that H/C equity is not the end of the story, I doubt it.
You're calculating the tip wrong. It comes out of the final pot and not your winning equity.

Also, How profitable does a hand have to be to play it. If you find yourself in 2-3 spots an hour where you pass on a couple bucks of equity, you're talking about $6/hour. For an 8/16 player, $6/hour is a huge portion of his total win. Like you can "I'm not a pro, so I pass on this one" all the way from being a winner to a loser. For one thing, I can't really imagine being a pro under 20/40 (so a good pro, the whole game is a pass). For another, you get to be a good pro by maximizing -- you play every profitable spot and pass on every not profitable one.

tl;dr to say that you shouldn't look at absolute $ and % mixed together. Just figure if the spot is profitable. If it is tough post flop, demand some overlay. If you're getting enough, play it even if it is tough. There are 5 bets in the pot, you have about 23% h/c equity, you are putting in 1 bet into a 5 bet pot. That's a lot of overlay. You also have good relative position, and shouldn't ignore that. Contrast it to guy limps in EP and tight/TAG raises next in.
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Old 02-12-2015, 07:56 PM   #173
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL View Post
In NL you snap fold, so it is really the nature of LHE that sticks you here. Even giving a guy super premiums, it is hard to fold. You're getting this big overlay to call on the initial bet. To my mind, there are two things that might make you want to give up even with the overlay.

You can never really have it go that we flop the best hand and know it. Throw AQs in the mix for the 3 betting guy, and every pair you flop can be an underpair and dominated. The only hand you can hit is a straight and be nutty. If the villain had exactly AA, you'd at least know what to suck out on. Flop here comes KQ4r, you go how many bets? Not that many.

The other thing would be with your marginal winning flops if you knew the villains would just relentlessly drive the action -- no hand you flop is going to love that. If the 3! guy can make you suffer with the help of the back-capper on a lot of boards, flopping a Q and hoping to beat JJ or TT (I know, not in your range, but you'd hope) stinks. This is different than playing 55 where you flop a set on a 9 high board and hope to get action.

So, you've got what. 2 to call in a 25 bet pot? That's a huge overlay to write off. I guess it depends on how sure you are that the three bettor isn't bored/angry/someone who re-raises JTs because of something he saw on a WPT broadcast.

Hero's a 6.64:1 dog, I believe.
Were did you get 2 to call in a 25 bet pot?
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Old 02-12-2015, 08:03 PM   #174
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL View Post
You're calculating the tip wrong. It comes out of the final pot and not your winning equity.

Also, How profitable does a hand have to be to play it. If you find yourself in 2-3 spots an hour where you pass on a couple bucks of equity, you're talking about $6/hour. For an 8/16 player, $6/hour is a huge portion of his total win. Like you can "I'm not a pro, so I pass on this one" all the way from being a winner to a loser. For one thing, I can't really imagine being a pro under 20/40 (so a good pro, the whole game is a pass). For another, you get to be a good pro by maximizing -- you play every profitable spot and pass on every not profitable one.

tl;dr to say that you shouldn't look at absolute $ and % mixed together. Just figure if the spot is profitable. If it is tough post flop, demand some overlay. If you're getting enough, play it even if it is tough. There are 5 bets in the pot, you have about 23% h/c equity, you are putting in 1 bet into a 5 bet pot. That's a lot of overlay. You also have good relative position, and shouldn't ignore that. Contrast it to guy limps in EP and tight/TAG raises next in.
Jesus guys all three are super easy to play you have the relative button etc.
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Old 02-12-2015, 08:13 PM   #175
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
Were did you get 2 to call in a 25 bet pot?
I think Doug is referring to the small bets. It's a bet a 3 raises at this room, so there will be 20 small bets in the pot, not 25. Assuming the CO calls the cap, I'll get 9 to 1.
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