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Old 01-31-2015, 12:49 PM   #126
Bob148
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I'd complete the A2o in the small blind.

I'd call the KJo in the big blind because I just plain think it plays better that way postflop and because of the risk of a 4 bet from the small blind. If you 3 bet and they call, then you're gonna end up making a bunch of cbets in spots where nobody's folding and you have little chance of winning unimproved and little chance to improve. If you just call preflop, then you put the small blind in the position of making lots of cbets into a field that won't fold.
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Old 01-31-2015, 01:56 PM   #127
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I'm trying to move the debate about the thread being open to the LC thread. People wanting to post hands should definitely do it here. People wanting to talk about threads, please do it there. Your posts have been moved, not just deleted.
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Old 01-31-2015, 02:13 PM   #128
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
I always complete here but I'm starting to question whether I should be a bit more picky in certain scenarios.

Here are my arguments for folding

1) tight Passives often limp with any Ace...potential for RIO
OK, but they often limp any non-Ace that is worse than your Ace-high. You probably have the best hand > 1/3 of the time.

Quote:
2) tight players are less likely to pay me off if I hit an Ace
Then bluff more when an Ace flops.

Quote:
3) the threat of a raise from agro BB who senses weakness.
OK, but he still has to beat two players, so he can't just randomly raise.

Quote:
4) weak Ace oop hard to actualized equity.
You don't have to get 3 bets out of a guy to have value. You could flop top pair, they could flop middle pair and you get 1 or 2 bets out of them.

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5) if my kicker hits it will be tough to hold up as best hand.
Sure, but you can make trips or two pair or a straight with A2.

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Are you guys pretty much always calling an Ace rag bpre flop assuming it's an unraised pot? Are there spots you would fold?
I am either calling or raising. Never folding.
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Old 01-31-2015, 03:05 PM   #129
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
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OK, but they often limp any non-Ace that is worse than your Ace-high. You probably have the best hand > 1/3 of the time.


Then bluff more when an Ace flops.


OK, but he still has to beat two players, so he can't just randomly raise.


You don't have to get 3 bets out of a guy to have value. You could flop top pair, they could flop middle pair and you get 1 or 2 bets out of them.


Sure, but you can make trips or two pair or a straight with A2.



I am either calling or raising. Never folding.
Thanks for the response!

In regards to Point number 4, I was referring to our overall equity and not just when we flop well.

You make good points!
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Old 01-31-2015, 03:19 PM   #130
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain R View Post
You don't have to get 3 bets out of a guy to have value. You could flop top pair, they could flop middle pair and you get 1 or 2 bets out of them.
Or you could flop bottom pair, check three times and win once in a while. It doesn't have to happen often because the investment is so small preflop. Try not to fall into the trap of betting until you know you're beaten. There are three players behind you on every postflop round, two of which have supposedly tight ranges. I play a lot of check and see in this spot. Maybe I'll bet more frequently on boards that hit my wide and weak range, but a flop like A72 is a clear check raise spot.
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Old 02-01-2015, 11:53 AM   #131
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
Loose, reasonably agro pre player Open limps HJ....he is fit or fold post, plays carefully to aggression and will just call down draws and top pair or worse,but will raise two pair or better on flop. He is never folding if it's two bets back to him.

The SB seems Tagish, I've seen him iso limpers a couple of times..raises


I am in BB with KJo. I stoves the numbers...me 32%...SB 39%...HJ 29% base on my estimates. I have a very tight image a the moment.

Is this just a call or a 3 bet?
ATTACK
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Old 02-02-2015, 03:53 AM   #132
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

This is from a 6/12 game a Bay 101. Earlier there had been some aggressive players and lots of preflop raising at the table, but now the table seems more passive with only a little preflop raising. Lots of hands have been 5-6+ way on the flop.

UTG: older Asian man, very lose preflop, but not the worse player post. He has been losing and re-buying.

UTG+1: Hero, should have a tight image, since i've been folding more than anyone else at this table.

UTG+2: Very loose Mexican, 60-70% preflop, chases post flop. Has won a number of big pots with crazy 2 pair or straights.

Mid-1: Another older Asian man. Slightly aggressive but loose.

Mid-2: Another very loose Mexican, knows UTG+2. Moved to the table from 3/6. Probably should have stayed at 3/6.

Mid-3: Relatively new player and I've been on break. Haven't seen him do anything out of the ordinary. Well dressed, late 20s-30s Caucasian male.

Other players are mostly irrelevant

I have 55 in UTG+1. I sometimes limp this from early position when games seem passive, though 55 is the smallest pocket pair I would do this with. My theory is this hand is easier to play out of position. I either flop a set or I'm folding the flop.

UTG limps, Hero limps, UTG+2 limps, Mid-1 limps, Mid-2 limps, Mid-3 raises, I think there was a fold but BB blind called. UTG called, I called, UTG+2 3 bets, Mid-1 calls 2, Mid-2 calls, Mid-3 4 bets(cap), everyone calls.

Limp re-raise from UTG+2 seems like big pocket pair, 4 bet from Mid-3 seems like a big pocket pair too. Don't think another hand was capped preflop at this table. (I 3 bet QQ and AKs, but that was a few hours ago.)

Is it a mistake to limp 55 preflop from early postion at a normally loose, passive table?
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Old 02-02-2015, 05:15 AM   #133
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Limping here is perfectly fine. I wouldn't credit utg2 with a big pair - he limped along after two other limpers. I've seen some ppl play big pairs that way but it's super rare. Hopefully you plan to bomb away if you flop a set - definitely not a time for trickery.
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Old 02-02-2015, 10:50 AM   #134
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

+1 on limping being fine

The fact that it was capped wouldn't change a good limp into a bad one, as long as the fact that it would be likely limped around wasn't just wishful thinking. The disaster for mikeca's hand is a game where it often goes 3-4 bets PF and then has minimal action post flop. He wants some implied odds to help with the marginal PF play.

On the LRR, it depends on the customer. Some people do it with KK+ or just AA. Others do it with good MW hands. Others do it for spite. On some level, you're hoping they both have big pairs and will give infinite action on a 952 board.
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Old 02-02-2015, 03:21 PM   #135
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL View Post
... On some level, you're hoping they both have big pairs and will give infinite action on a 952 board.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight View Post
... Hopefully you plan to bomb away if you flop a set - definitely not a time for trickery.
I wonder how we would react (having participated in capping preflop with AA, say) if a third party leads into the preflop cappers on a 952 board. How much action are we really going to give?
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Old 02-02-2015, 04:02 PM   #136
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Why would we donk into two active players? How much do the guys with the AA and KK hate each other or us? At no point in a poker game can we stop playing poker. If you're limping in EP, you'd better know your customers and how you plan to extract value. Maybe a donk will get spite capped before it gets back to you, and if so, donking could be expert. It could be that the other two guys will put in infinite raises to "protect their hands" on the flop. If you flop a set to two overpairs and get in exactly one raise, maybe you shouldn't be set mining?

This stuff is why you need to pay attention in the game. When the pots got big, how did the money go in? You've now left the TAG nation and are playing speculative poker. When you hit, you need to be able to make big pots with the best hand. How do you do it?

Quote:
How much action are we really going to give?
This is the one time a nit image could really hurt you. If you only ever raise sets or better, someone might decide to not give you any action. Or, maybe they just keep raising with AA. However, as the kind of player who is set mining in good game conditions, jamming draws, and other non-standard stuff, the hope is we get plenty of action now that we're near nutted. The people who are paying attention have seen that our raise button isn't dusty. I took TheDarkKnight's post to mean that we shouldn't slowplay the flop. Agree that this is the standard advice and we need a good reason not to play fast. x/3! could be the line.
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Old 02-02-2015, 06:36 PM   #137
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

While I don't disagree with Doug's message, the problem is finding the best way to get the most chips into the pot. He's right in that you have to know your opponents. However, he did turn the question around. I'm asking: what is the player with a big pair going to think when a third party leads into the preflop warriors (on a very dry board)? Turning back around one more time: with what range do you lead into heavy preflop aggression?

Once again, it will depend on what the players know/think of each other. I'm not suggesting that slowplaying is universally correct. On the other hand, I am suggesting that bombing away is not universally correct.

My experience has been that when a fire breaks out somewhere else, the earlier aggressors tend to take their feet off the gas. Consequently, absent a definite player-specific read, that is what I will have to factor into my betting decisions when I flop the set. If you have different experiences, then certainly you must adjust your decisions accordingly.
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Old 02-02-2015, 06:45 PM   #138
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

My experience is that lolslowplaying is super common, even into the mid-stakes. People love to wait a street after they hit, and people love to fastplay/jam draws. Thus, the advice to play fast with a set tends to avoid the case where you x/call-2 bets on the flop and then do something aggressive on the turn and kill all action.
Quote:
On the other hand, I am suggesting that bombing away is not universally correct.
I don't think it is universally correct. I do think it should be your default, and it balances what should be our tendency to jam draws and make thin value raises. If you want to get more nuanced, you'd look at flop texture. Until then, have a good reason before you fail to play fast. By playing fast I don't mean donking.
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Old 02-02-2015, 07:11 PM   #139
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e_holle View Post
I wonder how we would react (having participated in capping preflop with AA, say) if a third party leads into the preflop cappers on a 952 board. How much action are we really going to give?
If i flopped a set, my plan was to check raise the flop. Given the line up, the preflop action and size of the pot, I think it would be unlikely the flop would check through. This, however, strays outside the preflop subject of this thread.
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Old 02-02-2015, 07:43 PM   #140
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I think the pre-flop question here is when the flop betting comes back to me capped and I have to call 2 more or fold, is there an argument that the fold is better? From this action it would appear that there is at least one and maybe two big pocket pairs in other peoples hands. What are we going to do on a flop like A 9 5?

Of course some of the time the two players will both have AA or both have KK, so no set is possible for them. Sometime one will have AA and the other KK, and a flopped set of 5's will need to dodge both a A and K on the turn and river to win (I'm assuming that if they have AA and KK they are going to see the river card no matter what I do.)

Does the difficulty of playing a flop like that make a fold a better option?

(For the record, the flop was nothing like A 9 5, and I did not get beat set over set on this hand. This is just a theoretical question.)
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Old 02-02-2015, 07:47 PM   #141
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Figure out your pot odds calling 2 cold.

The tighter their ranges are, the easier postflop plays. If one has QQ+ and the other has KK+, you know which cards you care about. If one of them is 88+ and the other is 99+, half the deck gives them pulls at sets.

Quote:
(I'm assuming that if they have AA and KK they are going to see the river card no matter what I do.)
In playing an implied odds hand, them not folding is good for you. If you miss, you rarely plan to bluff. If you hit, you enjoy their two out suffering.
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Old 02-03-2015, 08:24 AM   #142
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeca View Post
This is from a 6/12 game a Bay 101. Earlier there had been some aggressive players and lots of preflop raising at the table, but now the table seems more passive with only a little preflop raising. Lots of hands have been 5-6+ way on the flop.

UTG: older Asian man, very lose preflop, but not the worse player post. He has been losing and re-buying.

UTG+1: Hero, should have a tight image, since i've been folding more than anyone else at this table.

UTG+2: Very loose Mexican, 60-70% preflop, chases post flop. Has won a number of big pots with crazy 2 pair or straights.

Mid-1: Another older Asian man. Slightly aggressive but loose.

Mid-2: Another very loose Mexican, knows UTG+2. Moved to the table from 3/6. Probably should have stayed at 3/6.

Mid-3: Relatively new player and I've been on break. Haven't seen him do anything out of the ordinary. Well dressed, late 20s-30s Caucasian male.

Other players are mostly irrelevant

I have 55 in UTG+1. I sometimes limp this from early position when games seem passive, though 55 is the smallest pocket pair I would do this with. My theory is this hand is easier to play out of position. I either flop a set or I'm folding the flop.

UTG limps, Hero limps, UTG+2 limps, Mid-1 limps, Mid-2 limps, Mid-3 raises, I think there was a fold but BB blind called. UTG called, I called, UTG+2 3 bets, Mid-1 calls 2, Mid-2 calls, Mid-3 4 bets(cap), everyone calls.

Limp re-raise from UTG+2 seems like big pocket pair, 4 bet from Mid-3 seems like a big pocket pair too. Don't think another hand was capped preflop at this table. (I 3 bet QQ and AKs, but that was a few hours ago.)

Is it a mistake to limp 55 preflop from early postion at a normally loose, passive table?
I would limp any pair in this situation. Why would your worst pair to limp be 55's if you are essentially just set mining?
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Old 02-03-2015, 09:26 AM   #143
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I think he was trying to save some face in case he got back lash for playing small pair here - I doubt he's calling 55 here and folding 22.

I've been taking the "training wheels" off my last few sessions. I love it. It's great for my image. I'm still not completing a lot of the weaker hands from the small blind, but I've been limping along and raising in position with a much wider range and it's done interesting things to my image.

In my regular games, I definitely have a pretty nitty image and I've sustained success long enough that people probably suspect I do pretty well in the games. Still, they can't help but give me action cause I raise a lot and fast play the flop with a wide range and show just enough bluffs that they never really know.

Tonight I was playing in a casino I don't frequent and experienced a rush of run good for the first time after widening my LP preflop range. I actually heard some people grumbling about how I play everything and I'm just lucky. I was a maniac fish in their minds. I loved it.

Mostly, I feel like this expansion will increase my long term win rate. Until tonight, I hadn't really experienced the benefit of loosening up (unfortunately I ran poorly enough with my premium hands that I barely booked a win) but I also didn't think I was making mistakes after the flop when I was running poorly. Obviously my variance will increase because of this but I'm happy with how it has improved my game and thought process already.
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Old 02-03-2015, 07:37 PM   #144
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

mikeca,

First of all hey how's it going? I'd never fold any pocket pair in the game described for 1 bet. If UTG straddled I'd likely cold call 22.
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Old 02-03-2015, 07:38 PM   #145
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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Originally Posted by jesse8888 View Post
mikeca,

First of all hey how's it going? I'd never fold any pocket pair in the game described for 1 bet. If UTG straddled I'd likely cold call 22.
Also the limp reraiser does not have a group 1 hand. Nobody smoovs those after two limps
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Old 02-03-2015, 08:25 PM   #146
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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Also the limp reraiser does not have a group 1 hand. Nobody smoovs those after two limps
That is FALSE. I saw it multiple times just in January. Still, I'm discrediting a big hand pretty much always.
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Old 02-03-2015, 09:03 PM   #147
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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That is FALSE. I saw it multiple times just in January. Still, I'm discrediting a big hand pretty much always.
You mad bro?
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Old 02-03-2015, 09:34 PM   #148
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Just saying you are wrong, sir. At least in my experience.
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Old 02-03-2015, 10:53 PM   #149
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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Just saying you are wrong, sir. At least in my experience.
I mean ok fine. What percentage of the time do you think this is a huge hand? And for bonus points, given that the other guy 4 bet and probably has like QQ+, AK, would it be better or worse for us if this guy also had QQ+,AK as opposed to 87s?
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Old 02-04-2015, 12:02 AM   #150
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Naw, I was just disagreeing with your blanket statement. I've seen it... recently... multiple times... but overall it's super rare. And a limp along three bet is not a hand I fear. Ever.

Obviously we rather they have QQ+, AK vs 87s.
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