Pre flop check up posts. - Page 54 - Small Stakes Poker Forum

That comment is almost certainly referring to being the first cold-caller of a raise, which general wisdom states is almost never the right play. If others have already made the mistake of cold-calling, that often allows you to cold-call with a good number of hands. The more players who have already called the raise, the more likely you should also be willing to call.

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06-21-2017 , 03:03 AM

#1327

rodeo

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Quote:

Originally Posted by C Put 6163

These were my first thoughts, too. But in the not too far back of my mind was this: "In order of importance, calling first-in and cold calling a raise instead of reraising (or folding) are the biggest errors." Philip Newall on Expoloitive Adjustments Pre-flop. The Intelligent Poker Player, p. 41

Newall was talking about not being the first person to call a raise. Some benefits of 3 betting instead of being the first cold caller are, in no particular order,

1. Creating dead money when blinds fold
2. Gaining last action when all players behind fold
3. Creating fold equity
4. Gaining the initiative

Once a player, in between the raiser and us, calls, those benefits are mostly lost. We then can have a range of hands that we can call.

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06-22-2017 , 03:40 AM

#1328

lawdude

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Yeah, if there are other people calling, it's no longer a cold call, it's a cool call, which is fine if you have the right hand to do it with.

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06-24-2017 , 01:45 PM

#1329

C Put 6163

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Villain has been at the table for about 30-45 minutes and has NEVER raised PF. She is UTG+1

Hero OTB with 9

Villain and 4 others limp. Hero raises. Villain 3 bets. The 4 others call. (17BB in pot)

Hero's read on Villain: 99.9% sure her range is AA. 00.07% sure her range is AA-KK. 00.03% sure her range is AA, KK, AKs.

fold, call or cap?

If we don't fold PF and don't improve, do we ever fold on any street?

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06-24-2017 , 01:50 PM

#1330

TheHip41

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Lol at folding Pf. Even is she turns over AA you should probably 4 bet. You will enough equity

As for the hand. I call the 3 bet. Call most flops for 1 since the pot is huge

Just flop a 9

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06-24-2017 , 02:08 PM

#1331

SetofJacks

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Agree with TheHip41 that you should call and flop a 9.
Disagree with his hyperbolic statement that it could ever be correct to cap if you were 100% certain that she had AA.

Anyone with random suited connectors has more equity than you at this point while AA of course has the lion's share. But it is certainly correct to call even if she has AA when you're getting 17+:1 to call.

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06-24-2017 , 03:57 PM

#1332

C Put 6163

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Hip and SOJ:

Do you fold the flop if no 9 is there? (You are still getting plenty of odds to turn the 9, especially if, as happened in this hand, the other 4 called Villain's flop bet).

And, if you call the flop and miss the turn, have Villain + 3 players remaining in the hand (after 1 folds on the turn), have 16 BB in the pot with some additional implied odds and the 00.03% chance that Villain is betting AKs; do you call the turn?

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06-24-2017 , 04:00 PM

#1333

C Put 6163

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Quote:

Originally Posted by C Put 6163

Villain has been at the table for about 30-45 minutes and has NEVER raised PF. She is UTG+1

Hero OTB with 9

Villain and 4 others limp. Hero raises. Villain 3 bets. The 4 others call. (17SB in pot) oops...OP had incorrectly labeled as BB

Hero's read on Villain: 99.9% sure her range is AA. 00.07% sure her range is AA-KK. 00.03% sure her range is AA, KK, AKs.

fold, call or cap?

If we don't fold PF and don't improve, do we ever fold on any street?

Had to edit a typo from OP

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06-24-2017 , 04:00 PM

#1334

ninefingershuffle

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Quote:

Originally Posted by C Put 6163

You are getting something like 13 to 1 preflop and have the button. Let the flop play itself if the flop comes AKq and there is s bet and a raise? What about T76

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06-24-2017 , 04:46 PM

#1335

TheDarkKnight

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You can definitely peel most flops that miss your set. 18 bets in pre and you didn't mention if either of the blinds came along. Once you are around 22-1 on flop you can peel your 2-outers. If the flop was the AKQ example though, I'd really consider folding. The T76 flop though? See you on the river!

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06-24-2017 , 05:37 PM

#1336

TheHip41

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If there is a bet and a raise and there is no 9 on the flop I'm folding unless the flop is 678

The only flop in folding for one bet is ❤️❤️❤️ when we have black 9s

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06-24-2017 , 05:55 PM

#1337

lawdude

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Call, assign her AA-KK as her range, and play post-flop based on pot odds and outs. (I.e., most of the time you are going to be calling 1 bet on the flop and folding the turn, you may call to the river if you have a straight or flush draw, and obviously raise only if you make a hand that beats AA-KK (i.e., do not raise an AK9 flop).

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06-24-2017 , 06:59 PM

#1338

TheHip41

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Quote:

Originally Posted by lawdude

False. Raise an AK9 flop

If they 3 bet. Then call down.

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06-24-2017 , 07:12 PM

#1339

lawdude

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHip41

False. Raise an AK9 flop

If they 3 bet. Then call down.

That's lighting money on fire based on OP's read.

Seriously, what's the point of putting players on ranges if you refuse to utilize the information?

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06-25-2017 , 12:06 AM

#1340

TheHip41

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He's played 45 minutes with them. Not 5 years. If it's 5 years and you know it's AA then just call down.

These yards could have A4s or KQo or 22 or what the f ever garbage they decided to limp re raise.

Raising the flop when you flop a set is never going to be lighting money on fire.

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06-25-2017 , 12:51 AM

#1341

C Put 6163

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight

Both blinds came along. (I did forget about mentioning that fact for flop and turn analysis). Beyond that, you have pretty much summarized what my thinking was in the hand for the flop and later streets.

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06-25-2017 , 05:16 AM

#1342

SetofJacks

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHip41

Exactly this. Folding for 45 minutes is not indicative of anything.
I folded for more than an hour straight and I'm borderline maniac. Sometimes people are card dead.

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06-25-2017 , 08:35 AM

#1343

TheDarkKnight

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Quote:

Originally Posted by lawdude

That's lighting money on fire based on OP's read.

Seriously, what's the point of putting players on ranges if you refuse to utilize the information?

You're saying fold the AK9 flop?

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06-25-2017 , 09:05 AM

#1344

TheHip41

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One more thing. When you flop a set smaller than someone else's flopped set, you're going to have a bad time of it. No way around that. Doesn't mean you should just assume everyone has a larger set and lose tons of value when you flop a set.

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06-25-2017 , 09:34 AM

#1345

leavesofliberty

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Okay, I get the .. joke, but seriously confusing.

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06-25-2017 , 09:37 AM

#1346

leavesofliberty

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Quote:

Originally Posted by C Put 6163

Villain has been at the table for about 30-45 minutes and has NEVER raised PF. She is UTG+1

Hero OTB with 9

If you're ~100% sure you're drawing to one out, then the pot is not big enough to draw. But, there is no way you can be this sure, and it's unlikely to find a spot where you're even as high as 90% sure. You do not own their soul.

A more interesting q would be "how sure" do you need to be before you lay down.

Also, it's very hard to put an exact percentage as there is a margin for error. Soul reading is a recipe for mucking winners in the long run. You can get strong reads, but don't kid yourself.

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06-25-2017 , 12:57 PM

#1347

DougL

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C Put 6163's villain

Quote:

Villain has been at the table for about 30-45 minutes and has NEVER raised PF. She is UTG+1

Hero OTB with 9

Villain and 4 others limp. Hero raises. Villain 3 bets. The 4 others call. (17BB in pot)

Hero calls.

Flop A

, checks around to hero who

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06-25-2017 , 03:29 PM

#1348

lawdude

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight

You're saying fold the AK9 flop?

No, the call down is the tilt insurance. But you shouldn't raise it.

Seriously, you need to be good 50 percent of the time or more to raise if you are convinced your opponent doesn't fold anything. 66 percent if your opponent folds the hands you beat.

You guys are advocating raising sets that aren't good 50 percent of the time. That's not good poker.