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Micro-Small Stakes Limit Discussions about micro-small stakes Texas Hold'em (all stakes up to around 15/30)

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Old 04-28-2017, 02:31 PM   #1251
Bob148
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Depends on if they think AK is a drawing hand.

If they do, that means we're getting oversetted too often imo.

If they don't and will raise and reraise preflop with ranges like this:

ep raise: TT+, AQs, AKo

3 bet: QQ+, AKo

fish coldcall: maybe 35%?

then I'm getting in there with 22, maybe not if it's a 5 bet cap, but definitely in a 4 bet cap game.
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Old 04-30-2017, 05:27 AM   #1252
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I'd probably call 44 and fold 33.
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Old 05-01-2017, 03:48 AM   #1253
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I realize we have to make a distinction somewhere but I think it's hard to imagine a scenario where I call 3 bets with 44 but fold 33. the diffence really only comes into play when opponents can have Ax, 56x etc or we gain a tiny fraction of equity by being less vulnerable to the 2 pair counterit.

But in this scenario if I'm calling 55 I'm certainly calling 22
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Old 05-01-2017, 03:23 PM   #1254
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon_locke View Post
I realize we have to make a distinction somewhere but I think it's hard to imagine a scenario where I call 3 bets with 44 but fold 33. the diffence really only comes into play when opponents can have Ax, 56x etc or we gain a tiny fraction of equity by being less vulnerable to the 2 pair counterit.

But in this scenario if I'm calling 55 I'm certainly calling 22
Yeah, Jon, I was gonna say the same thing. That's why I posted it as "small pocket pair". I really didn't think it mattered which one it was.

So since you're here, what do you do with the small pocket pair here?
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Old 05-21-2017, 02:17 PM   #1255
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

20 game. TAG posts cut-off. H has won Pot A wo showdown, snatched a bluff for pot B, but is stuck. H has Image of a TAG @2 (button-2). A4o. Raise/fold/call, all three?
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Old 05-21-2017, 02:39 PM   #1256
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
H has Image of a TAG @2 (button-2).
What seat are you in during the current hand? Have a read on blinds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
Raise/fold/call, all three?
I like all three but impossible online. You can spazz out and do all three live though.........
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Old 05-21-2017, 03:52 PM   #1257
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Blinds and button are loose-passive. Spin the bottle.
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Old 05-21-2017, 04:21 PM   #1258
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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TAG posts cut-off.
.

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What seat are you in during the current hand?
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Old 05-21-2017, 04:23 PM   #1259
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Hero is to the right of the cutoff.

2 from button. HJ.

I use numbers for short hand signifying distance from the button and b for big, s for small and a for ante.

Last edited by leavesofliberty; 05-21-2017 at 04:46 PM.
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Old 05-21-2017, 04:48 PM   #1260
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I'd raise ATo+ and fold the other Aces.
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Old 05-21-2017, 10:42 PM   #1261
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
20 game. TAG posts cut-off. H has won Pot A wo showdown, snatched a bluff for pot B, but is stuck. H has Image of a TAG @2 (button-2). A4o. Raise/fold/call, all three?


Super easy turbo fold. Calling or raising would be terrible.
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Old 05-21-2017, 10:51 PM   #1262
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Looked at stox's generic chart which recommends raising A7o from HJ. The dead money sweetens the pot.

I think I draw the line at A6o.
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Old 05-22-2017, 03:05 PM   #1263
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
20 game. TAG posts cut-off. H has won Pot A wo showdown, snatched a bluff for pot B, but is stuck. H has Image of a TAG @2 (button-2). A4o. Raise/fold/call, all three?

A4o is still garbage, i'm folding
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Old 05-22-2017, 04:52 PM   #1264
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Playing a pot OOP w/ Ace-wheel off w/ the betting lead gets expensive. I want nothing to do w/ A4o unless I'm fairly certain that I'll get the button.
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Old 05-22-2017, 05:33 PM   #1265
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
I want nothing to do w/ A4o unless I'm fairly certain that I'll get the button.
Exactly. I bet we get this hu vs the big blind almost never, which also makes A9 unprofitable imo.
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Old 05-22-2017, 05:34 PM   #1266
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Fold the A4 off. As JDR says, the hand plays terrible out of position and the poster is calling or 3-betting somewhere between a wide range and a 100 percent range.
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Old 05-23-2017, 03:58 AM   #1267
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

But the bet sweets the pot and law there is no reason to fear being 3bet 100% esp since A has showdown value. Also V's range is not 100% though it would be cool if it were. I think you have to keep your raising standard about the same to a little looser, but perhaps not A4, because to tighten up seems like you're saying the post in is not a disadvantage where clearly it must be or everyone would do it. Unless I am missing something?

What do you all think are optimal raise and call standards for the post-in?
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Old 05-23-2017, 06:12 AM   #1268
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
But the bet sweets the pot and law there is no reason to fear being 3bet 100% esp since A has showdown value. Also V's range is not 100% though it would be cool if it were. I think you have to keep your raising standard about the same to a little looser, but perhaps not A4, because to tighten up seems like you're saying the post in is not a disadvantage where clearly it must be or everyone would do it. Unless I am missing something?

What do you all think are optimal raise and call standards for the post-in?


There are 4 people yet to act after you raise.
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Old 05-23-2017, 03:39 PM   #1269
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
But the bet sweets the pot and law there is no reason to fear being 3bet 100% esp since A has showdown value. Also V's range is not 100% though it would be cool if it were. I think you have to keep your raising standard about the same to a little looser, but perhaps not A4, because to tighten up seems like you're saying the post in is not a disadvantage where clearly it must be or everyone would do it. Unless I am missing something?

What do you all think are optimal raise and call standards for the post-in?
Let's assume I have a raising range for HJ. It is based in part on the fold equity I have from the CO and the BUT. In other words, I can raise some marginal hands that wouldn't actually like a 5-way pot, because most of the time I am not going to get a 5 way pot. Rather, the CO and BUT will "respect" my raise. This is poker 101- the gap concept. You can raise with a wider range than the caller/3-bettor can play once you have raised.

Without opining absolutely about A4 off, somewhat weak offsuit aces certainly can plausibly be part of that range. Your raise will often get you heads up or in a 3 way hand against the blinds, and having ace-high in position is a pretty decent holding in that situation. (And of course sometimes you will successfully steal the blinds too.)

Now, let's change the simulation. Let's assume you are playing a home game, and let's make the house rule that the guy acting after the pre-flop raiser is required to cold-call. How should that affect your raising range?

It should be pretty obvious. The hands that are most likely to be harmed by the cold-caller are weak offsuit aces. They are now going to miss a lot of flops, with only one overcard (and thus an apparent 3 out draw), unlike AT+, they are going to be vulnerable to flop raises (or flop bets if you check) by the player in position, they don't flop flush draws very often (unlike a suited ace), etc.

Plus, there's a schooling effect. The CO's call makes the BUT, SB, and BB more likely to call, which means that rather than stealing some blinds and seeing some 2 way and 3 way pots in position, you are now going to be seeing a lot of 5 way pots out of position.

So you should drop them from your raising range, while still raising hands that don't mind that scenario that much. For instance, QT suited is a wonderful hand to raise from the HJ in that situation.

What I'm trying to say is that basically having a poster in the CO is almost exactly the same as having that rule. The CO poster is going to play a huge percentage of hands. So you are basically never going to get the conditions which are the reason you might want to raise a weak offsuit ace from the hijack.
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Old 05-23-2017, 03:40 PM   #1270
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Did you consider that the cutoff posted in? It's not the same. Read the first few paragraph, but it is not the same. It dramtically changes how the cutoff plays.
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Old 05-23-2017, 03:53 PM   #1271
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

One of the main difference is that the cutoff is in w weak hands and while you might get outplayed but still.
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Old 05-23-2017, 03:55 PM   #1272
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

This is why I think we should ask what the cutoff does here.
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Old 05-24-2017, 10:43 AM   #1273
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

The CO should call with a very wide range. And if I'm the CO and I know you're opening with A4o, I'll 3bet very widely and get to go HU with a slightly stronger range with position and dead money in the pot (which benefits me more than you).

You don't want to widen your pre flop opening range when you can almost guarantee that a player in position will call and will encourage others to call. On average, the pot is going to go off multiway. That means that you want to have a range of hands that is strong and plays well multiway. "Strong and plays well multiway" doesn't describe A4o.

The exception would be if the CO is really nitty and will fold to your raise often and the BTN won't adjust properly and the blinds are terrible. If those criteria are met, by all means go ahead and raise any AXo.

Attacking a reasonable CO post from OOP isn't something to be taken lightly.
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Old 05-24-2017, 10:51 AM   #1274
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

right, if the CO is a good player, he's going to 3bet your raise with 30-40% of his possible hands, and cold call a lot, knowing the blinds will call if they call.
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Old 05-24-2017, 12:04 PM   #1275
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Actually, I doubt that too many CO's are going to 3-bet wide. That's sort of unheard of outside of 2+2. But what they are going to do is call, a lot, and that's going to bring in the button and the blinds a lot too. And that alone is enough to make A4o unplayable.
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