Since this is something dmyers1166 and I were discussing in our session review here are my 3bet stats in those positions.

SB 8.57%
BTN 19.7%
CO 18.1%
HJ 14.8%

Thoughts? I know it matters my overall VPIP/PFR is 42/32

Filtered for 6 handed? 5 plus?

No those stats include 2-6 players, for 5 plus they are:

3bet
SB 19.44%
BB 8.23%
HJ 14.59%
CO 18.09%
BTN 19.37%

Overall 38.52/29.06

Those stats are too basic. We need to see what position those 3bets are coming against and what position you are in. A BTN range should be different against a CO open than a UTG open.

It shouldn't matter that much if the sample size is significant. Where the initial raise comes vs your btn is going to balance out. Obviously you have to adjust your 3 bet range based on where the initial raise is coming from and also just as important, reads and what range you think the pfr is opening.

That's a bad argument. balancing out doesn't matter if you can't even agree on what those ranges should be in the first place. Balance out to what exactly? Its the same reason that an overall ATS stat is pretty terrible.

Why do we look at overall 3bet stats by position at all then? We should look at each individual hand, what position the raise came from, the villain's stats, your reads and notes on the villain overall, and your read on the villain for this session ie. is he drunk or tilting. Then why do we bother to look at our stats or have this thread at all? We should only look at the individual hands vs individual villains.

Balance was probably the wrong word averaging might make more sense. If you have a 100K+ hand sample you are going to have a % of hands opened from each applicable position and your overall 3 bet % by position should be an average of what you do vs opens from all applicable positions from all variety of villains.

If you had two guys who averaged 3 betting 19% from the BTN, and one of them was unaware of the position of the original open and one of them dramatically shifted based on the position of the open... the first the could be actually fish.

Honestly, position vs. position 3 bet stats just take a long time to converge. Are you getting in 10K+ samples vs given villains? 20K+. When I was supernova grinding I had samples like that, vs. SNE grinding regs. Even then, a couple of those SNE's got coaching and got way better -- how could I trust my 10K sample of hands in the HUD when games shift over time?

At least with self stats you could filter from the day you took the nyrugby Power LAG challenge. As opponent HUD stats, I'd be super slow to make adjustments from stats-only reads.

Don't know what your talking about, I'm trying to become a super nit I tend to use my note based reads 1st and see how they match vs the villain stats. I don't think I have many villains who I have enough hands on where the position vs position 3bet stats would converge.

The stats we look at the most in this thread are things you do when there are opens from certain positions (FBBtS) or when you open and the other positions matter less. If you are static in your numbers you are not using position knowledge to your advantage. 3-betting KTo against a CO open is fine, but not against a UTG open.

I don't disagree at all. Obviously we have to adjust our range vs the openers position as well as our reads. Against a true maniac utg iso 3betting KTo on the btn might be the right play, depending on your reads on his post flop play. As a default vs an unknown it's an easy fold.

I think what dmyers and I are asking is are our preflop 3bet stats by position too tight or too loose? I know that's pretty general. Are you saying these stats can't give you any insights into that? Or is just more important to compare these stats position by position ie you are 3betting more on the btn than in the CO etc. and the gaps between them? Would it also be important to look at these stats in relationship to your positional VPIP/PFR?

^^^ Well said and I think accurate. As a player I can't play the stat, I have to play the hand and table I'm at. However, over time the stats will converge. However 3betting stats are relatively rare situations and clearly converge much slower than VPIP/PFR. However, if I have 60K hands I should have some idea if I'm too much out of wack with what other players play.

PT4 has some really good filtering and displays to figure out how I'm playing. If I see I'm 3betting the button at 8% but everyone says they play at 15%+ then I know I'm way too tight. Now I need to open my range, but an experienced player doesn't just grab a 15% range and go to town. Instead I would work on situations and ranges and focus my mind for the next month on expanding my range on the button.

If I dig much deeper on a stat basis, then I'll run right into sampling issues. So my question is pretty direct, in all situations what is the expectation for SB 3betting, Button 3betting and CO 3betting from a stat only perspective.

Perhaps this is the key: I have a feeling I'm a bit to tight and just need to focus on 3betting until is becomes more automatic but hope to get a rougher idea of the goal to shoot for in the next 4 months.

Have you identified spots where you're missing profitable three bets? What are the best hands you fold? The stat says there might be a leak. Now we look for a hole in our understanding. Then, we fix the hole. Then see how our revised game does, situation-wise. Does our new strategy put us in horrible spots, or do good things seem to come from it range vs. range? At some point in the far future our stat changes such that we notice. If you can't find the leak in your play, I wouldn't chase a stat to change a %.

I think that game and seat selection will affect 3 bet stats significantly. So if you play in a lot of bad games, or lag hunt, then your 3 bet will be higher.

I'm curious to know if you guys can filter for an open raise and a coldcall, and look at your stats for 3 betting in that spot.

Thanks for the views, my plan now is to follow the advice of DougL and put on the mining cap and dig in to my ranges. I wasn't ever really trying to move my stat to another point on the line, but to get a rough estimate of where it should be using other players as a guide. Since there seems to be no consensus, some work with equity and range will find the holes and I will see where my stats fall at the end of the year.

This is always best

0.02/0.04$ :



Any guidelines on which parts of the game should be seeking improvement first? Thanks in advance.

VPIP and PFR are about 10-15 pips higher than they should be at each position. But lol 2c 4c.

He might want to filter for 5-6 players. It is the micros forum

I meant it in the sense that you can get away with those stats at 2c 4c but they aren't good practice.

I usually try to play shorthanded(3-4 players max) maybe that is the reason VPIP/PFR are off the mark.

You need to stop playing short like that as these games are going to become to hard to beat because of the rake. Something you need to keep in mind. (Depending on sites and how they take rake based on players who are dealt into the hand.)

I was thinking that table selecting and playing as many hands as I can HU with a fish would be beneficial. You mentioned the rake, do you mean that when playing shorthanded rake becomes too high to compensate winrate taken from playing versus weak player face to face?

Very much so. Generally rake is too high to be playing heads up until maybe $5/$10. Even if the player is bad, being LHE, it takes longer to break an opponent and variance can be killer sometimes.

all time all stakes. (not entirely the truth)



25/50c position


So Im trying to get up to 25/50c and as you can see ive stayed at the 5/Tc for way too long. my 10/20c is basically straight down to -800BB then back up to what it is now. Im not bothered by that. What im bothered about is that this is my without having an exact number I know it is my more than 10 times try to get up to 25/50c and stay there. I kept deleting all my hands because it was always -$200 then delete then -200 again and so forth if i had kept all the hands i would probably have stopped playing poker just looking at the horrible numbers. sometimes it would even be a mere 100BB and i would be done trying. These stats is decreasing as i go up in stakes. I take it as just an increase in aggression which im not super used to when ive played 164k at 5/Tc where its 5man pots all the time.

Is these stats so bad that I can't even beat 25/50c ? or am I just tilting in my head.

Ive had a lot of people who have seen my game and ask why arent you at 1/2 yet and stuff like that. I know its supposed to be an encouragement but as it is right now it feels more like depressing than anything else.

any tips to help me in what area i should improve on or is it just grind away ? or am i just that bad that I simply have to settle for being a 5/Tc grinder for the rest of my miserable poker life. yes right now im tilted as f.. just thinking about how pathetic it feels like i cant even beat 25/50c .. bahhhhhh.