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Micro-Small Stakes Limit Discussions about micro-small stakes Texas Hold'em (all stakes up to around 15/30)

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Old 04-06-2010, 07:22 PM   #1
OziBattler
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welcome to the micros stats thread part 2. the last one is big enough and its been reported that some users are finding it rather slow to load.

Link to old thread

may be useful to some

From the OP of part 1 of the thread....

Quote:
Originally Posted by OziBattler View Post
welcome to the micros stats thread.

Im starting this thread for 2 main reasons, the second being more important than the first.
1. So that people dont have to start a new thread to ask people to comment on their stats
2. So that we will (hopefully) have a high quality thread which will allow readers to see stats and comments of others which makes it easier to see trends etc in the comments so the reader can relate them to their own stats. If this thread goes as i hope then it will actually reduce the number of stat posts as people who want to post stats will read this thread and not need to post their stats anymore.

The plan is that this thread will be able to be used as a decent reference for stats. Accordingly, I (and Wookie if he's so inclined) reserve the right to delete/edit crappy posts from it that do not add value. Also if someone makes a new stats thread I may choose to transfer the content (if I get to it before there are too many posts) to this thread and delete the new one. If I do this Ill obvoously Ill advise the OP.

Notes to anyone wanting to post their stats:
1. Be sure to make sure you have AT LEAST 10k hands in your stats. Posting screenshots of PokerTracker is recommended. Try any include whatever you feel necessary...look at previous posts in this thread as a guide. The MicroLimit FAQ contains useful info on stats. It is expected that you read this BEFORE you post any stats in this thread
EDIT UPDATE: Also this post by bravos is a must read.
2. Ideally each post will get their own 15 minutes of fame in this thread and to keep this thread readable, if someone else just posted their stats then consider waiting for the discussion of their stats to die down so that we dont have too many concurrent threads going in this thread.
3. Want to see other stat posts? Use 2+2 search engine to search for '+stat -Re', select 'Subject Only within microforum for last 2 years
4. Understand that stats are just numbers and you cant find all leaks by looking at them...this is why some people think stats posts are not that useful. They can be useful but understand that nothing beats actually getting involved in the forum and replying to strategy posts/hands. This forum helps people who helps themselves. i can tell you to play more hands in late position and to raise more preflop but unless you get involved in the forums you wont get any feedback on if you are picknig the right spots.
5. When you ask for comments on your stats you are likely to get some blunt comments. This is expected so try and take each comment based on its merit.

Notes to anyone who wants to comment on stats:
1. Im fully aware that some people dont like stats threads and that some say not to worry about stats but the reality is that there are posters who want stats threads so they do have a place in this forum so basically if you dont like stat posts then dont post in this thread
2. feel free to notify mods then direct people to this thread if they want their stats anaylsed


Well thats about it. Lets make this thread a quality one so that it serves as a great stats reference.

Ozi

Last edited by OziBattler; 04-06-2010 at 07:48 PM. Reason: merged in the Link to Old thread, thanks crazyfool
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Old 04-06-2010, 07:42 PM   #2
dragon1893
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

i think creating a new thread is a good idea. games are changing and so are also optimal stats for todays games.
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Old 04-06-2010, 08:33 PM   #3
Rathga
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

Could I start off ? Just hit 10k hands !



0.02/0.04$ FR

Should I be playing a little looser at this limit ? Although moving up now to 0.05/0.10$ so don't want to go too far...

Any other thoughts?

Thanks
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Old 04-06-2010, 08:55 PM   #4
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

I think your VPIP could be a little higher. Since there are so many multiway pots, you should be playing a lot more in late position. Even offsuit connectors. Not bad though

Your PFR is too low. You need to start raising hands like 98s, K9s, A7s, etc. These hands play well in multiway pots and have positive equity. Raise and put more money in your pocket.

It looks like you open limp a lot. Though at these stakes its ok to open limp some hands, you still need to open raise your stronger hands.

Your ATS is low. Start stealing more. Even if you know the BB will call, you can still raise profitably.

Pump up the aggression pre.

Just my $.02
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Old 04-06-2010, 09:06 PM   #5
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

Rathga:

You certainly can play looser at this limit, but it's not necessary. As you move up, you'll want to raise much more of your vpip range to take the initiative and punish limpers. For now, start raising more of your A-broadways to limit the numbers of villains you face postflop. TPTK hands prefer few villains to prevent giving odds to draws.

You can steal a lot more than you are now because, while many villains at penny stakes are call-down monkeys, they're mostly unaware of stealing. And you'll have position and initiative postflop, so you can control the pot size when you're unsure where you stand.
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Old 04-06-2010, 09:52 PM   #6
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

Looks pretty good rathga. I am not a stats expert at all but it looks to me like you could probably work on opening a little wider in the two late positions and maybe a little narrower in the two early ones. I also think you may have room for raising a little wider preflop in all positions and 3 betting more often.

Having said that, 10k hands are still not all the well converged so proceed carefully, you seem to have a nice win rate so our goal is: first to do no harm

Another thing, if you want to, you should be able to handle .05/.10 and/or .10/.20 pretty easily. imo

Last edited by Bona; 04-06-2010 at 09:58 PM.
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Old 04-06-2010, 10:21 PM   #7
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

Hi, I'm a fairly new player. Started playing poker in late december/january in solo computer games. Signed up on PS in Febuary. I've been doing good at 0.02-0.04, and this month my goal is 0.05-0.10. I've had some good days but others are horrible. Currently trying to fix my CCPF %, work on not overestimating backdoor draws, making notes on players between games, and as of last night reduce donkbetting

Here's a pic of all my stats, and my last 9.2k roughly. Any thoughts on other things I'm doing wrong? Working on being more positionally aware was my goal last month (you didn't want to see the stats for Febuary).

All stats:


Last 9k:

Last edited by Jhereg; 04-06-2010 at 10:28 PM. Reason: Edit: Trying to fix images to same way others have it
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Old 04-06-2010, 10:59 PM   #8
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

First off, congrats on the winrate. It's always nice to win.

If I had to list the top thing that you should work on immediately:

1) Raise! Raise a lot more! 25/4.5 will get you slaughtered at higher stakes because you're going to a) getting isolated and played against out of position, b) let other people come along correctly cheaply, and c) have such a tight raising range that you'll be easily to play against postflop. What hands are you currently raising from each position? Are you raising more in late position than you are UTG?

I mean, really, we can stop critiquing there - that's an absolutely huge area of your game that you need to work on ASAP. I'm out of touch with good FR stats, but I would guess you could probably increase your PFR a good 150%-200% and have it help immensely.

Other critiques:

Become more positionally aware - you should be raising much more on the button than in the UTG, for example.
Stop cold-calling a ton.
Stop open-limping so much.
Steal more! (See point 1)
Lower your VPIP some (although technically this probably isn't a bad number for .02/.04 if you know why you're getting in so many pots)
Don't go to showdown so much
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Old 04-06-2010, 11:35 PM   #9
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

Thank you. I've been having a hard time being more aggressive since it blows up so often. I need to get over occasional blowups. I'm mostly following the SSHE tight game hands page for 0.05-0.10, but not raising as much as it recommends. I've been trying to raise more in late, but seeing a tight nit limp in ahead scares me too often also.

Most of the cold calling is from the previous month. I think I've cold called once in the last week or two. My VPIP is slightly lower even than the stats there lately, but mainly it goes back up whenever i'm dumb and open my range for no reason. I'm not sure if other people do it that often, but my bane is reaching to click and knowing its dumb but doing it anyway.

Thank you for all the advice. Will try to tackle it all, but likely will be piece by piece.
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Old 04-07-2010, 05:46 AM   #10
Rathga
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

prfsr_cain, fracas, bona: many thanks for taking the time!! I'll take this advice on board!
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Old 04-07-2010, 05:49 AM   #11
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

19/9 is pretty solid for .02/.04. You're probably missing some value raises preflop. If a higher VPIP is working for you then maybe thats good and you can pull of something more like 20/12 or 25/14 or so depending.

I still think fold equity is mostly absent in .02/.04... so just make sure whatever you're playing is for value. I'm confident you can be raising 10 or so percent of hands for value at those stakes in almost every situation so you should be raising more preflop.
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Old 04-07-2010, 09:11 AM   #12
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

at .25/.50 6-max how often should I be defending my blinds to a steal on average? like, obviously i'll need to adjust but i'm just looking for some reference points here.
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Old 04-07-2010, 09:26 AM   #13
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by datsmahname View Post
at .25/.50 6-max how often should I be defending my blinds to a steal on average? like, obviously i'll need to adjust but i'm just looking for some reference points here.
Folds BB to Steal: between 45-55% IMO (I think ideal at higher limits is 35-40%, but I don't think you need to get that low b/c the ATS ranges at .25/.50 are likely to be tighter).

Folds SB to Steal: Probably ~85% and 3! ~15%. This might be a little on the tight side as well for the same reason.
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Old 04-07-2010, 11:33 AM   #14
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

ok good to know. i think i'm pretty much on track there but folding the SB 75%. sample sizes are still pretty small soz we'll see.
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Old 04-07-2010, 12:35 PM   #15
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leroy2DaBeroy View Post
(...but I don't think you need to get that low b/c the ATS ranges at .25/.50 are likely to be tighter).
I'll say...

Dats, check your own DB because the aggression level you see may vary from the times at which I've been playing the last couple of months, but I reckon the average villain's ATS is around 17%. Yep -- they steal with the same range we'd open with UTG!

I was profitable folding @ 40% BB / 15% SB (small sample size though) and you should do better than me with your better post-flop skills and much, much better note-taking.
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Old 04-07-2010, 02:49 PM   #16
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

17? thats pretty tight... I think the lightest i've 3-bet out of the the SB was against a guy who had earlier opened J8s from the CO.... If he's opening a very slightly wider range... say 40% from the button I'm flipping against that range with A5s... but that was kinda close.

Theres really no way my actual resteal range is 25% from the SB. Its probably just variance because i've never 3-bet A4o or anything..
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Old 04-07-2010, 10:01 PM   #17
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

With the start of the new Stats Thread (good idea, Ozi) I wanted to throw some stats up on the first page to provide something of a guideline for other players.

Noobs: Wherever you're at now, I think there's something of a stats progression that you'll go through on your way up in limits. Trying to go from 20/6 to something like 17/13 in one step is going to be unnecessarily difficult, IMO. I think there are 3 main stages to go through. I've included some sample stats from my own history playing to give you an idea of what your stats might look like as you transition.

1) Decent/good lower limit (below .25/.50) player - roughly 19/8. You start to become positionally aware. You're reducing your cold-calling and starting to become familiar with the types of hands you want to play in various situations.



2) Standard Micros TAG (.25/.50 to 1/2) - roughly 17/10. You're starting to open up your PFR range from every position. You start to become familiar with the concept of isolating players and blind stealing.



3) Good Micros TAG (.50/1 to 2/4) - roughly 17/12. You start to open up your 3! ranges and further widen your blind stealing ranges. You start to focus on blind defense.



I hope this helps. If someone wants to post something from 6Max (either a progression or what they feel are "good" stats for the upper end of the Micros) feel free.
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Old 04-07-2010, 10:44 PM   #18
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

6max

I'll post my last stats I had at .5/1 on Party while bonuswhoring during december-january.





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Old 04-07-2010, 10:50 PM   #19
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

Leroy, I notice your reports include many more stats than mine (which I believe have just the PT3 defaults). I had to look up Raise When Previous Callers and Limp With Previous Callers, in fact. Could you, and anybody else who has an opinion, tell me what you think are helpful non-default stats, and why?

Also, why do some folks prefer Aggression Frequency to Aggression Factor?

Which stats do you find are most helpful to break out by street?

I'm planning to start doing more statistical analysis of my game, so I'm trying to build a mental framework of how the stats all interact.
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Old 04-07-2010, 11:10 PM   #20
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

6max

This are my stats at .25/50 on Party while bonuswhoring. Between these stats and the .5/1 there are some differences. Lower WTSD, lower 3! stats are the ones that I noticed right away.





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Old 04-08-2010, 03:51 AM   #21
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

Leroy, awesome post. Nice development. Very interesting.
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Old 04-08-2010, 08:50 AM   #22
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by fracas View Post
Leroy, I notice your reports include many more stats than mine (which I believe have just the PT3 defaults). I had to look up Raise When Previous Callers and Limp With Previous Callers, in fact. Could you, and anybody else who has an opinion, tell me what you think are helpful non-default stats, and why?

I did my 3k milestone on this (I think it was 3k). I've changed it a bit since then, but it'll give you the general idea. Just search for it.

Also, why do some folks prefer Aggression Frequency to Aggression Factor?

You can search for this as well. The really good post is from SSSH and has a lot of posts from Leader, iirc. It shouldn't be too hard to find.
.
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Old 04-08-2010, 09:12 AM   #23
shuinthehouse
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

L2B your CO & BTN steal %'s tilt the crap out of me, you are way too good of a player to be at 30 and 37%.
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Old 04-08-2010, 09:20 AM   #24
Leroy2DaBeroy
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shuinthehouse View Post
L2B your CO & BTN steal %'s tilt the crap out of me, you are way too good of a player to be at 30 and 37%.
I'm working on it. I'm surprised you didn't mention my 50+% FBBtS... (I'm working on that too.)
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Old 04-08-2010, 09:25 AM   #25
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Re: OFFICIAL MicroStakesLIMIT stats thread (part 2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leroy2DaBeroy View Post
With the start of the new Stats Thread (good idea, Ozi) I wanted to throw some stats up on the first page to provide something of a guideline for other players.

Noobs: Wherever you're at now, I think there's something of a stats progression that you'll go through on your way up in limits. Trying to go from 20/6 to something like 17/13 in one step is going to be unnecessarily difficult, IMO. I think there are 3 main stages to go through. I've included some sample stats from my own history playing to give you an idea of what your stats might look like as you transition.

1) Decent/good lower limit (below .25/.50) player - roughly 19/8. You start to become positionally aware. You're reducing your cold-calling and starting to become familiar with the types of hands you want to play in various situations.



2) Standard Micros TAG (.25/.50 to 1/2) - roughly 17/10. You're starting to open up your PFR range from every position. You start to become familiar with the concept of isolating players and blind stealing.



3) Good Micros TAG (.50/1 to 2/4) - roughly 17/12. You start to open up your 3! ranges and further widen your blind stealing ranges. You start to focus on blind defense.



I hope this helps. If someone wants to post something from 6Max (either a progression or what they feel are "good" stats for the upper end of the Micros) feel free.

i know this is 9handed but even so your preflop range seems really tight to me, at least compared to what i have seen in videos
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