Midstakes game, full ring. Aside from hero, table normally has 5-6 recs, 1-2 'good reg/professional/semi-professional. There is a lot of limping, most of it bad, but 1-2 players routinely limp very strong hands including 88-aa, a[k-t], kq as well as more normal limping hands. limp-raising is extremely rare.

mid-Late position, I'm often unsure whether to call, raise or fold. Even a hand like a9o on the btn can be challenging after 3 limps, one of who limps some very good hands like described above. I'll post a few spots below to get the discussion started.

My question is only focused on ax hands, not other types of hands. Also more on the borderline hands as AJ+, ATs+ is normally a fairly straightforward raise.


utg+3:
Bad rec limps, tight rec limps, 1 fold

Utg+4:
2 bad recs limp

hj:
Bad rec, tight rec, pro

Co:
1bad recs, 1 ok rec, 1 pro

Btn:
1 bad rec, 1 tight rec, 1 ok rec, 1 unknown


Thanks everyone.

Don't focus on what strong hands the good recs limp. Focus on what their entire limp range is.

In the CO/BTN it's never too bad to limp along with playable hands.

I agree with how so important position is. BTN/CO would be the only place to limp A2-A7 unless the game was super passive and I was certain there would be no raise.

A8-A9 can be added in MP for a limp (or raise depending on the situation)

the only hand I would limp occasionally is ATs, AJs from EP in a loose passive game.

I had an opponent the other day in a mid-stake that was as willing to limp a 65s in early as any and all pocket pairs including AA. I was going to make a border raise in the cut-off with 66, since one of the limpers is limping with any-two, and decided at the last second to just call.

phunkphish has it. If he's limping 65s, it doesn't matter that he could have AA. Look at his entire range. If raising is correct it just is and sometimes he gets to have AA. Guess I'd argue with "good rec" because the plays our OP describes are just bad.
Because you're not angry enough at money to fold, but you dislike it enough not to raise? Occasionally means we randomize based on mood? The best play is either to raise them or not to do so. In the case of AJs in EP, it is clearly best to raise. Do that every time. ATs UTG+1, same. The game being loose/passive means that people who should 3 bet you will fail to do so. It also means that they'll still call with K9s for 2nd best flush draw.

I overlimp and coldcall like it is my job, but I don't think I would ever overlimp any unsuited Ax hand.

I mix all three here fold/raise/call depending on limp ranges, leaning towards raise. I use to auto fold.

Either my high card strength is good, or it isn't, so almost always raise/fold in these situations.

I would raise ATo+ in the first two spots and fold the rest.

I would raise ATo+ in HJ and maybe overlimp A9o if players to the left weren't overly agro.

I would raise ATo+ on Button or CO and overlimp A8o and A9o and fold the rest.

I would be raising all suited aces in these spots. They play well in multiway pots against limpers and win big pots against worse flush draws. Top pair will also have most opponents drawing thin on dry flops.

Have to disagree about limping in early position. Now it might be the case in 20/40 or higher that this is correct, maybe even at most 8/16 tables. However, at 4/8 you're oft times playing at a table where you have people limping almost 95% of their hands but folding 95% of their hands to a raise. In this type of game I'm limping hands like A10suited up front. If you limp you almost always get at least 5-7 players to flop....you raise you fold the table around (unless someone has a big hand and then it's 3 back to you heads up!) And you're playing heads up against one of blinds. Limping has to be correct here.

I have never played in a game at any stake were people limp 95% of hands but fold 95% of their hands to a raise.

I open ATs because it plays well multiway or hu. If you're limping with hands this strong then your raising range will be too narrow and easy to read.

My experience is that people will limp for 1 and complain and call for 2. 2>1. QED.

lmao if you've never been in a game like that come play 4/8 at HG, id say 40% of time tables are like that..2 or 3 people limping ...hell 99% of hands ..I've been in games where there were people who would only raise kk aa, and limped around 95-99% of their hands. And you REALLY don't want to be heads up at 4/8 (unless ur raise created a lot of dead money on table and even then)...the RAKE! You raise A10 up front and u chase out the j8os, weak aces, 9/8os etc. in this type of game. And lastly, given the description of my opponents, do you really think I'm worried about being read...these people could NEVER read anyone's hand lmao.

@ dougl , yes they will, but facing two bets cold? Depends on table, some tables they will still call, others they are folding..have to have a feel for the kinda table and base decision on that...but I contend that there are times when limping up front is correct.

There are reasons for limping up front, but I also have never played in a game where it would be a good reason because of the dynamic claimed.

I agree with you that people at these stakes aren't the best hand readers. I do think that players intuitively know when certain people raise it is to be taken seriously. What is your open range from EP?

Depnds on game. If I think I can get a 1-2 callers and maybe one of blinds I'm raising 1010+ AJ+ A10s+ and ocassionally throwing in hands like KQ, non suited mid connectors. This type of game balance comes into play. If I think raising will fold table to blinds ..I'm limping all of the aforementioned range. IF..I know I'm going to get at least 3-4 calls plus blinds...I'm also obviously limping what I like to call "13 & the 9"s" suited hands I'm raising late with 5 or more people in...A3+ then K9+ Q9+ J9+ so in this type of game I'm limping a wide range of hands up front. In a game where a limp in ep still will likely fold table to blinds I'm raising all the hands previously mentioned.

once again come to HG any night really. It's not always like that..obviously these are REALLY good games..but they are there Id say around 40% of time.

If this were true, the correct play would be to raise any two cards every hand from late position.

To be clear, there's no way that's true.

My apologies callipygian it seems I wasn't clear...we were talking about early position....not late...I never said they would call and then fold to one more bet...thats NEVER happening. But they will limp hands like j8os all day..and they will fold same hands to a raise. These people play linear strats...almost on auto pilot. in these kinds of games.

Oh, I see. Well I agree that in loose-passive games there's space for open-limping, but if you have plans to move up in stakes, you should break that habit as soon as you can.

LOL, its not a habit, its a calculated reaction/strategy based on the conditions of the table. I open limp in ep in certain types of games because its the right thing to do given the situation.

In a vacuum, maybe open limping is the slightly more profitable thing to do with certain hands in early position against certain lineups. But it does awful things to your range (that you can't compensate for without doing other awful things to your range), and including open-limping as part of your strategy creates the totally unnecessary risk that you will open-limp with hands that you should raise or fold. It's way easier to create a preflop strategy that doesn't involve open limping, and most justifications for including open-limping are just rationalizations for playing hands that you should fold (or raise!) in EP.

a vacuum? awful things to my range? In the type of game I'm talking about and yes they exist...its reality not a vacuum and not an isolated occurrence, they happen quite often. In this type of game "balance" is not a concern of mines due to the people who are at the table. Now you might prefer raising A10s in EP and getting heads up with what will be a better hand most of time or collecting ur $5 dollars for the blinds..ME i'm gonna limp A10 in EP get 4-5 callers and blinds...and enjoy my equity advantge.over the weak aces, j8os, any two suited cards...this isn't 20/40....people play REALLY bad and are highly exploitable. And once again..this is a REALLY good game..in a tough game, and yes there are tough games at 4/8...I'm never open limping in EP.