Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Micro-Small Stakes Limit Discussions about micro-small stakes Texas Hold'em (all stakes up to around 15/30)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-11-2010, 04:25 PM   #126
Buzz-cp
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Buzz-cp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: :noitacoL
Posts: 10,902
Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

Hi All,

I remixed Leader's charts so that each image is by position. I found this more useful for me.

Also, for each action, I divided the hands into three lines:
1st line --> pears
2nd line --> sooted
3rd line --> unsooted

There may be a few mistakes, so if you notice any I will fix.

Enjoy,
Buzz











Buzz-cp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2010, 05:20 AM   #127
deathdan
veteran
 
deathdan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: here and there
Posts: 2,376
Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

hey nice work
deathdan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2010, 08:12 AM   #128
Malaclypse
newbie
 
Malaclypse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: .de
Posts: 26
Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

TY Buzz!

Do you still play with chart?

98o+ ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Itsover9000!! View Post
Down, may someone reup this?
http://www.file-upload.net/download-...eader.xls.html

Last edited by Malaclypse; 09-15-2010 at 08:23 AM.
Malaclypse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2010, 01:34 AM   #129
Buzz-cp
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Buzz-cp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: :noitacoL
Posts: 10,902
Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

Hi Mala. Yes i recently put the training wheels back on as I found out I've been super nitty. So yes I now steal with 98o.

edit: unless you mean 98o+ typo
Buzz-cp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2010, 04:29 PM   #130
Pramogauk
newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 18
Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malaclypse View Post
TY Buzz!

Do you still play with chart?

98o+ ?



http://www.file-upload.net/download-...eader.xls.html
This one is down too..
Pramogauk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2010, 08:33 PM   #131
TomGoogle
grinder
 
TomGoogle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 557
Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redbad View Post
Tried the chart for 175 hands on a couple different tables and ended up with stats of 15.8/11.1 and down 26.00 playing on 1/2 and following it to the letter. Someone at PS needs to turn off the doomswitch. Redbad
I'd suggest you play about 5x more hands to see where the vpip/pfr is converging to, and about 20x to 50x or more hands to see where your BB/100 is converging to.
TomGoogle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2010, 06:25 AM   #132
Malaclypse
newbie
 
Malaclypse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: .de
Posts: 26
Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pramogauk View Post
This one is down too..


--> http://www.dateiupload.com/files/GvkqdOaC1J.xls
Malaclypse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2010, 09:07 AM   #133
banned123
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

Needs to be stickied IMO
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2010, 02:34 PM   #134
RICHI8
adept
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,108
Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

Just a tip from me that helped me out greatly: instead of remaking these charts 1000x different ways, learn them and memorize them in a range way like pokerstove (ie. {88+, ATo+, A9s+, etc} instead of relying on charts and colors. The reason I recommend this is that way its in alignment with how pokerstove shows hand ranges and its easier (for me anyway) to quickly draw on the ranges like this instead of trying to visualize some chart with colors all over the place. Just a tip that helped me out a ton when I first began to think about ranges. Great charts for getting started though.
RICHI8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2010, 11:58 AM   #135
Vince115
stranger
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6
Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malaclypse View Post
How to download from this server??????
Vince115 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2011, 06:39 PM   #136
robsonsmith
stranger
 
robsonsmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2
Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

Thanks a lot for the tables. I'm having a little problem with my pre-flop play, I'm SUPERMEGA Nitty. Let's see if those can help me.
robsonsmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2011, 06:59 PM   #137
Verno
Pooh-Bah
 
Verno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Fox News of SSSH
Posts: 3,897
Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

I look forward to a new one of these charts coming out from Ixiterra...
Verno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2011, 08:05 PM   #138
needsFH2win
grinder
 
needsFH2win's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 511
Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

can this be applied to FR?
needsFH2win is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2011, 08:58 PM   #139
RoyHobbs
journeyman
 
RoyHobbs's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: The O.C.
Posts: 265
Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by needsFH2win View Post
can this be applied to FR?
Look at it this way:

FR LHE 10 handed. SB is seat # 1. You are in the 7th seat. The hand is dealt and the first four players fold. Wadda ya got ? You have a 6 Max game with you now becoming the UTG player.


FR LHE 9 handed. SB is seat # 1. You are in the 7th seat again. The hand is dealt and the first three players fold. Wadda ya got ? You have a 6 Max game with you now becoming the HJ player.

This PF Starting Hand Chart has the UTG opening for close to 14 %. I will leave it up to you to determine what you should open with should you be the EP player in your FR game..
RoyHobbs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2011, 10:43 AM   #140
antneye
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
antneye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Fighting for my right to play poker
Posts: 6,525
Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

I've started using the chart using the format that Buzz posted. After getting some feedback that I am not 3-betting enough pre I decided to see what this chart says so I stoved the loosest range I could find....on the button against a late position raise

66+
A8s+, KTs+, QJs
A9o+, KQo

According to PokerStove this is the top 12.5% of hands. Looking at my play to date I am 3! around 10.7 from the button overall which tells me that I am probably close since the charts say to raise the top 7.4% against an EP raise.

I guess my question is are these charts still valid? Are there other hands we should be including in our 3! range from the button? Obv we expand or tighten based on villain, but that goes without saying.
antneye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2011, 11:36 AM   #141
All Apologies
veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,453
Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

I think advocated 17% from OTB actually.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Oink View Post
PF charts suck imo because they make you a robot and they dont teach you PF play as they make it to easy for you to just play like that robot and then blame it on variance and rake when you fidn out you are not good enough to win.

People spend too much time figuring out if they should b/f or b/c down turns and not nearly enough time figuring out when they can play A7o UTG, 73s OTB. Coldcall 75s OTB. Coldcall QJs in the SB etc etc etc. The scary part is that learning PF and getting good at PF is even easier than postflop. Yet a stunning amount of players in my games and based on what I read here at 2p2 absolutely SUCK at PF.

People get into religious fights whether the fold BB to steal should be 35 or 55. When the fact is that it doesnt really matter nearly as much as not knowing when to play A7o UTG and when to fold A9o, when to isolate a limper with Q6s and when to overlimp Q9s, when to coldcall a btn steal with JTs and when to 3-bet 65s and when to fold K9o, when to coldcap 66 or JTs and when to fold 99 or KQs to a 3-bet, etc etc etc
Check out some of Oinks posts really good reading.


Edit: Found this in the stats thread on 3b pre.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oink View Post
Its 9 in the HJ and 17 OTB. 12 in the CO.

Yes obv you should 3bet a CO open wider than a UTG open when OTB. OTB against a normal reg in the CO I 3bet about 29% of my hands but only about 10% against a UTG open. Obviously this all depends on certain other factors

Last edited by All Apologies; 10-30-2011 at 11:43 AM.
All Apologies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2011, 11:52 AM   #142
antneye
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
antneye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Fighting for my right to play poker
Posts: 6,525
Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Apologies View Post
Check out some of Oinks posts really good reading.
I tend to agree in general but I am looking for leaks and figure I should at least baseline my play against generally acceptable pf charts just to make certain that I'm not missing anything glaring.
antneye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2011, 09:30 PM   #143
4lysik
Dinkum Aussie KOTKP Champ
 
4lysik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: checking my nuts
Posts: 644
Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

Against a late position raise I tend to 3! more Ax, suited Kx and some smaller pairs in favour of the RIO hands you have in there. Not that I'm good at poker, but QJ puts me in a bad spot when it makes pears.
4lysik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2011, 06:53 PM   #144
Leader
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Leader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Math is the answer
Posts: 11,677
Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by antneye View Post
I guess my question is are these charts still valid? Are there other hands we should be including in our 3! range from the button? Obv we expand or tighten based on villain, but that goes without saying.
These charts really are very basic and pretty outdated. Even using them at 1/2 is probably pushing it.

The amount of variation in my 3b'ing is pretty large based on villain and how much they are opening as well as a good number of other factors. Some situations call for you to 3b ~9% from the BT others it's well into the 20's.
Leader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2011, 09:59 PM   #145
antneye
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
antneye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Fighting for my right to play poker
Posts: 6,525
Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leader View Post
These charts really are very basic and pretty outdated. Even using them at 1/2 is probably pushing it.

The amount of variation in my 3b'ing is pretty large based on villain and how much they are opening as well as a good number of other factors. Some situations call for you to 3b ~9% from the BT others it's well into the 20's.
What would you consider to be a baseline button 3! range against an EP raise...and for a CO raise? We can adjust from there based on villain...I'm just trying to ground game right now as I try to make the transition.
antneye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2011, 09:51 AM   #146
4lysik
Dinkum Aussie KOTKP Champ
 
4lysik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: checking my nuts
Posts: 644
Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

WARNING: long post coming. I spent some time trying to answer your questions and then justify my answer with stove ... a useful exercise, probably worth going through the steps yourself with assumptions that apply to the games you are playing, instead of the ones I think I am.


Quote:
Originally Posted by antneye View Post
What would you consider to be a baseline button 3! range against an EP raise...and for a CO raise?
grunch, because I suck at thinking about what range I should be playing.

I've been bouncing between .25/.5 and .5/1 for a while now so I kind of suck. Consider my words more a discussion point than any kind of useful advice.

By EP I'll assume you mean UTG/UTG+1 and estimate the raiser's range at say 99+, AT+, KJs, KQ and sometimes more random paint. Against this I like 55+, A3s+, A6o+, KJs, KQ as a starting point. I see a fair bit of random paint from some players though which quickly makes me widen this range. I'll even stretch into the suited connectors if I think the villain is likely to be passive or fit/fold postflop.

To get a range vs CO I had to play with stove for a while. Part of the problem is in constructing a range for CO: if I'm table selecting correctly, CO is a fish so he limps preflop (thus my 3! range is smaller) or I have some idea how to take pots away from him postflop (making my range wider). That's not really helpful in answering your question though, so I pretended CO doesn't limp and made up a range that might be somewhere near my median, coming up with a 22% range, and got something I like against that:

Code:
[51.4%] CO open: 22+,A5s+,K8s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,98s,A9o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo
[48.6%] BTN 3!:  44+,A2s+,K2s+,Q6s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,87s,A7o+,KJo+,QJo,JTo
Compare my ranges for an EP open:

Code:
[56.7%] EP open: 99+,ATs+,KJs+,ATo+,KQo
[43.3%] BTN 3!:  55+,A3s+,KTs+,QJs,A6o+,KQo
This looks pretty bad, but if we remove EP's capping range we're in much better shape:

Code:
[51.2%] EP open/call: TT-99,AQs-ATs,KJs+,AQo-ATo,KQo
[48.8%] BTN 3!:       55+,A3s+,KTs+,QJs,A6o+,KQo
.. which suggests my 3! range vs a CO open could be a bit wider.

disclaimer #2: I haven't compared these to Leader's original charts which I tried to live by when I was getting started, that would also be revealing I'm sure.

Last edited by 4lysik; 11-01-2011 at 09:55 AM. Reason: formatting
4lysik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2011, 11:50 AM   #147
antneye
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
antneye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Fighting for my right to play poker
Posts: 6,525
Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4lysik View Post
[I]WARNING: long post coming.
Long, but welcomed. I'm playing around a bit myself with the ranges. I think I noticed an error in your LP 3! range. You have CO opening K8s+ but you are 3! wider than him at K2s+....that seems counter-intuitive to me. Don't we need to be 3! a narrower range than him in order to maintain our equity advantage?

I could be wrong but I would assume we start with a baseline of how we would play at a certain position, and then come up with a 3! range against that position that is somewhat narrower to maintain our edge?
antneye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2011, 12:20 PM   #148
moomies
adept
 
moomies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Proxima Centauri
Posts: 1,193
Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

i dont claim to have the answers either but i'll gladly nitpick yours

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4lysik View Post
To get a range vs CO I had to play with stove for a while. Part of the problem is in constructing a range for CO: if I'm table selecting correctly, CO is a fish so he limps preflop (thus my 3! range is smaller)
the 3 bet stat only counts when facing an open raise. it doesnt matter if CO limps every hand, you will have a 0/0 3bet for that spot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4lysik View Post

Code:
[51.4%] CO open: 22+,A5s+,K8s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,98s,A9o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo
[48.6%] BTN 3!:  44+,A2s+,K2s+,Q6s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,87s,A7o+,KJo+,QJo,JTo
range vs range isnt the way to go about it. some of your hands suffer terrible vs his range, and are getting propped up by your better hands.

eg J8s has 37.3% here
moomies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2011, 10:06 PM   #149
4lysik
Dinkum Aussie KOTKP Champ
 
4lysik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: checking my nuts
Posts: 644
Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

Not that I'm justifying my ranges (they clearly are a bit wacky), but it is sometimes fine to get in as a dog if you can punish the PFR post flop. Connecty hands are good for this - you can get a four-card flop, b/f dry boards if he's foldy or milk for IO when you hit well. Just something else to keep in mind when deciding whether or not to 3!.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moomies View Post
the 3 bet stat only counts when facing an open raise. it doesnt matter if CO limps every hand, you will have a 0/0 3bet for that spot.
Thus having a limpy CO will tighten my 3! range. While I might raise 25-30% if I see him limp in, I'm getting out of the way when he raises and I'm not holding something in the top ~10%.

Another consideration is CCing or overlimping on the BTN. Yes, passive play preflop: I'm not convinced it's ever a good idea but recent forays into NL have led me to at least consider it. As BTN we don't have to buy position and depending on the blinds we might have a better chance of a 4way unraised pot than a successful iso (hu with dead money), which a lot of hands prefer, especially when villains have tasty OOP leaks.
4lysik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2012, 10:26 AM   #150
ottsville
Pooh-Bah
 
ottsville's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: On to real football!
Posts: 4,645
Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

bump
ottsville is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ę 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online