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Old 10-16-2008, 02:42 PM   #51
TheHip41
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Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

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Originally Posted by Apanage View Post
The reason I asked is because of all good posters I most often share your opinion , especially about preflop decisions.
So I have wondered if that depended on that we play similar styles.Which we obviously do if you play 26/18/1.8.
Because that is what I play when I don´t push myself to play laggier.

There is pratically 0 difference between 26-18 and 30-20

the main ones, 30-20 iso with more trash than i do, and steal a little more, and call in the BB more. prob 2% points for each one, and there u go.

post flop is way more important than PF anyway
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Old 10-16-2008, 03:21 PM   #52
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Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

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post flop is way more important than PF anyway
ding ding ding


The difference between a below average 26/18 and an above average 33/22 is otoh quite big. I am pleased to say that Solid_p alas QQfourtt dont play LHE a lot at paty these days. He was the best 33/22 you could come about in those games and having him to your left would easily cost you 0.5-1BB/100 compared to having a below average 25/18.

Moving from 25/18 to 30/20 wont increase your WR if you dont have decent postflop edge and the rake is reasonably low.
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Old 10-16-2008, 03:24 PM   #53
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Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

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Originally Posted by Oink View Post
ding ding ding


The difference between a below average 26/18 and an above average 33/22 is otoh quite big. I am pleased to say that Solid_p alas QQfourtt dont play LHE a lot at paty these days. He was the best 33/22 you could come about in those games and having him to your left would easily cost you 0.5-1BB/100 compared to having a below average 25/18.

Moving from 25/18 to 30/20 wont increase your WR if you dont have decent postflop edge and the rake is reasonably low.
i agree oink

i've seen 28=18 that play really well postflop, and 34-25 just burn money on the turn and river because they can't guage when TPTK goes from awesome to "god damn, i should fold this turn raise, but I'll call down"

when that happens, they 3bet anyway
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Old 10-16-2008, 03:53 PM   #54
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Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

Being laggier preflop isn't really about adding hands that have an edge. It's about both putting yourself in postflop positions in which your opponents can make large mistakes and causing players to over adjust and perceive you as something other then a good thinking player. Playing a highly agro style tends to tilt people. Causing them to play more predictably whether that is predictably bluffing or predictably folding.

I do disagree with Oinks implication that a 30/20 style is suboptimal if your not an excellent postflop player or if the rake is high. To the former, players need to learn to be looser if they are going to be successful players at midlimits+ long-term. You can't learn unless you're putting yourself in those spots consistently. To the latter, while the rake reduces the value of weak hands, opponents at these limits, especially with proper table selection, are terrible. The rake at 3/6 maybe 1BB/100 worse then 10/20 but the opponents more then make up for that.

Edit: I play close to 33/24 fwiw
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Old 10-16-2008, 04:26 PM   #55
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Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

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Originally Posted by Leader View Post
The rake at 3/6 maybe 1BB/100 worse then 10/20 but the opponents more then make up for that.

Edit: I play close to 33/24 fwiw

At my sites the rake difference between 3/6 and 10/20 is almost 2 BB/100.
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Old 10-16-2008, 04:32 PM   #56
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Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

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Originally Posted by TheHip41 View Post
There is pratically 0 difference between 26-18 and 30-20

the main ones, 30-20 iso with more trash than i do, and steal a little more, and call in the BB more. prob 2% points for each one, and there u go.

post flop is way more important than PF anyway

Yeah but what I meant is that I more often also share your view of how a certain hand should be played postflop than I share Oink:s for example.
And I´m almost certain that this to a large degree is depending on our preflop style and how our preflop stats affects how other players plays against us.
And not by the fact that OINK is doing something wrong
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Old 10-16-2008, 05:20 PM   #57
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Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

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Originally Posted by Apanage View Post
At my sites the rake difference between 3/6 and 10/20 is almost 2 BB/100.
I should have put it a different way. IMO you can play a 30/20 type style quite profitably with rake of 3BB/100 given the opposition often found in small stakes games.
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Old 10-16-2008, 05:34 PM   #58
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Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

Leader. I agree with you and you with me.

Reread my post.
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Old 10-16-2008, 09:16 PM   #59
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Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

The original chart outlines instances where it is okay to cold-call bets.

I have always been taught that cold-calling a raised pot preflop is not a good thing to do. I always raise or fold.

Is this a huge leak in my game?
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Old 10-17-2008, 12:27 AM   #60
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Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

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The original chart outlines instances where it is okay to cold-call bets.

I have always been taught that cold-calling a raised pot preflop is not a good thing to do. I always raise or fold.

Is this a huge leak in my game?
No, but it is a leak.

Here's a post of mine from a couple of years back. It should give you some idea of spots were you can CC.

Quote:
[...]

First let's think about the 3-bet/fold philosophy and why it's mostly correct. Say you have a tight player 20/13 and he raises UTG. Let's assume he has this range UTG: 88+,ATs+,KTs+,QJs,AJo+,KQo. You either have a hand to match up well against his range here or you don't. There isn't much middle ground. In addition, with a player like this, you want to have the initiative so that you can pick up some pots when you both miss. Say you CC'ed KQo against this guy OTB. What's going to happen post flop? When you make nothing, you’re going to most likely fold the flop or turn. When you make something you're either going to be crushed or crushing. No matter what line you take your going to win very little. So CC'ing in this spot is pretty bad. Let's generalize the things that make CC'ing bad here:

-The players range is tight. Therefore, there's less uncertainty about his cards. With this more accurate read, we should be able to make a precise pre flop decision.
-Having the initiative is important in this situation. Specifically, our opponent is tight enough to fold a better hand should we play aggressively.
-When we look at the post flop dynamics that will result from a CC, it's clear we are in a RIO situation.
-Villain likely plays well post flop, which means he will get the max when he's ahead and lose then min when behind.
-We are in position which should generally make as more likely to 3-bet and less likely to CC because having initiative in position is much more valuable then having initiative OOP. In fact having initiative OOP isn't always a good thing as we will see.

Well, it's clear the above covers most chances you have to CC and puts the kybosh on the idea. As is generally accepted, the stars have to be aligned for a CC to be correct. I'm not auguring with that. I do, however, believe the stars are aliened a little more then people think.

A vivid example. It's folded to the BT who is 90/60. As one would suspect, he's a post flop LAG. Would someone like to give me an accurate range for this guy? If you can, you have an insight into poker that I don't. The way I see it this type of player can have any two weighed toward better hands. For example, he probably raises AJ here every time and maybe he raises 72o 25% of the time. Still there is no certainty about his range. So you're in the SB with 98s. BB is normal not the kind of 3-bet wildly in this spot after we CC. So how do we play here? First, we should address the issue of initiative. What does initiative gain us in this spot? Will villain fold a better hand? No. Will he often steal the initiative with a worse hand? Yes. Is villain going to be scared into playing better by a flop cr? Occasionally but not often. What does taking the initiative lose us? Mainly the ability to get away when we flop nothing for 1BB instead of 2. We also lose the ability to force out BB, do we really want to. I don't think so. Our hand plays well multiway. Having another player in the pot bloats are implied odds when we hit hard. All in all, I think taking the initiative here pf is something to be avoided. Let's look at the odds assuming 1/2 blinds. We're getting 1.5/3.5 immediate with BB to act behind. BB should increase our odds rather then decrease them because he with call more then raise. We have to think about it going 3-bet-cap though so it's probably a very slight increase. Implied odds are the real odds however in this situation. If we consider post flop, when we hit hard we will get paid by our LAG friend. Probably in the neighborhood of 3-4BB on average. So with the pf money as padding we're getting between 1/6.33 to 1/7.66. Clearly those odds are too good to past up and we haven’t even taken into account our IO vs. BB which are also positive if no nearly as good. Again let us generalize why a CC is good here.

-Our opponents range is uncertain. We could be dominated; we could be dominating, but mostly we have 2 live cards and don't know how they compare to villain’s hand.
-The initiative in this spot does us no good. In fact it hurts us. When we consider post flop dynamics we're better off without the initiative.
-We have good implied odds when we hit because of the nature of our hand (it's a drawing hand) and the nature of our opponent (he's a wild LAG).

Obviously there is quite a large gap between these examples. One represents the extreme when CC'ing is clearly the worst of our options; the other represents the extreme were CC'ing is clearly the best of our options. If we look at all other hands where an opponent raise first in as a spectrum between these to extremes, then at some point on that spectrum there's a line* that separates these two types of hands.

[...]

*”line” isn’t the best word here. What really separates clear CC’s from clear 3-bet/fold’s is a large grey area with lots of plays that are neutral EV or slightly one way or the other. What makes the decision then is mostly a combo of your image, metagame, and how comfortable you are in your ability to play correctly post flop given your pf line.
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Old 10-17-2008, 07:43 AM   #61
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Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

I must say I am not an expert but I would like to give my input about these hands. I am personally a BIG favorite of these starting hand charts but I think I have learned to play pre-flop a lot by the situation too. I usually use this chart and go up and down a notch in hand rankings depending on the opponents - but I am also comfortable stealing with 74o in the small blind when I find the right situation. I also play 2/4 and 3/6 and I've been doing good - been playing around 3-4 months poker, 2,5 months losing around 25/50c levels, 1,5 months winning in higher levels. I've been learning A LOT!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastien View Post

one limper :
In BB i raise a lot more, like 55+ when hu 77+ when 3way, A9o 3way,A5o hu.
Pocket pairs have a lot of informational advantage and its hard to play them correctly unless you hit the flop. I rather just call and call down my sets and let enemies push - as they usually will since you did show weakness. I am not that big fan of raising aces - if you hit the ace you wont make a lot of money, but if you dont raise your opponent is usually not afraid of the ace and you can just call him down with you are pair. I rather raise with king-high hands and donk if an ace flops - the opponent will usually give up.
77 sb i can raise
66 i raise mp co boutton an call sb.
as said middle pairs are hard to play, especially with multiple villains
A8s sb sometimes i already think is a raise, if i know well vilain postflop or bb is tiht i raise.
A6s i raise mp co bt
A5-a2s i raise co bt
suited hands play well against multiple enemies so you dont need to play them as strongly, again you can just call down your ace pairs and draws instead of betting them which I find a lot more valuable.
ATo i raise sb
with stronger aces I think the idea is to win a lot in small pots against limpers who like to limp in with smaller aces. This makes limp-limp-limp situations good with higher aces (ATo).
Q9s i raise mp co bt
QJo i raise mp bt
JTs-J9s i raise mp co bt
T9s i raise mp co bt
scary against reraises behind and again drawing possibilities make these hands play well weakly in multiway pots. You also maybe need a little more variation - it sounds like you play everything with the line Raise - bet bet bet

against 2limper
i raise A8s+ and call A6s
i don't raise a9o and call it
i don't raise a8o i fold it
i fold K8s- and see many discuss ont it probably a way too tight
i raise QTs co
i fold Q8s-
i fold QTo
i raise JTs
i fold J8s
Again, offsuite hands are more value with less opponents, suited with more opponents. You also have positional advantage against 2 limpers - you will know better what your draws are worth and how much you are likely to pay for them
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Old 10-17-2008, 09:40 AM   #62
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Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

Hey guys maybe I am fish but can I use this hand charts on short handed 0.02/0.04 cents game?? And btw which would be better for such a mikro limit : short handed or full ring?
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Old 10-17-2008, 02:26 PM   #63
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Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

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Originally Posted by Leader View Post
I should have put it a different way. IMO you can play a 30/20 type style quite profitably with rake of 3BB/100 given the opposition often found in small stakes games.
Again i would dream of playing at a site that only take 3BB/100 at 3/6.
But I agree with both you and OINK that a 30/20 strategy is more profitable than a tighter even at 3/6.But I do believe Oink is right that you have to be very good postflop and it certainly isn´t for everyone.

I do however think that it is as easy to beat 10/20 than it is to beat 3/6 if you table select properly ,considering the 2 BB/100 rake difference.
.
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Old 10-18-2008, 04:38 AM   #64
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Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

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Originally Posted by TheHip41 View Post
post flop is way more important than PF anyway
This kind of thinking is very dangerous.

I know the idea of being able to do whatever the **** you want preflop and still crush the games is very sexy and is the "in" thing this season, but playing well preflop is very key to becoming a successful LHE player.

I can't tell you how many lag/lagtag/tag players I come across that really have no understanding of playing preflop other than some basic concepts.
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Old 10-18-2008, 04:53 AM   #65
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Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

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This kind of thinking is very dangerous.

I know the idea of being able to do whatever the **** you want preflop and still crush the games is very sexy and is the "in" thing this season, but playing well preflop is very key to becoming a successful LHE player.

I can't tell you how many lag/lagtag/tag players I come across that really have no understanding of playing preflop other than some basic concepts.

for beginners PF is important, I'm not downplaying that.

it is just, once you learn PF, postflop separates the good from the very good and the bad


if you don't know PF, then preflop > postflop
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Old 10-18-2008, 06:40 AM   #66
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Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

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Originally Posted by Oink View Post
ding ding ding


The difference between a below average 26/18 and an above average 33/22 is otoh quite big. I am pleased to say that Solid_p alas QQfourtt dont play LHE a lot at paty these days. He was the best 33/22 you could come about in those games and having him to your left would easily cost you 0.5-1BB/100 compared to having a below average 25/18.

Moving from 25/18 to 30/20 wont increase your WR if you dont have decent postflop edge and the rake is reasonably low.
Hi oink, i've a question for you. I've seen your videos of deucescracked, and i've found them very interesting and very useful for me.
In the first video, when you play on party 5-10 or 2-4, you use your lagTag stile. I play on ipoker 2/4, where the rake is very very high. Is possible to play with profit your stile in this game? Or is better a standard tag stile 26/18?
thank you
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Old 10-18-2008, 07:53 AM   #67
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Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

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Is possible to play with profit your stile in this game?
For sure


Is it optimal? Maybe I dunno

Can you make it profitable? Well that depends on your skill level postflop relative to your opponents. So that depends on how many fish you find in your games and how well you table select. If you dont table select and you play a lot with other rakeback grinders and you arent very competent then playing a 32/22 style is most likely not optimal or even profitable.


I dont think you should worry about these things. I think you should worry about your game and your understanding of when you should play 40/30 and when you should play 27/20. How does game conditions affect your optimal strategy. THATS the key!

Untill you get those fundamentals down I would advice you to play a style as advocated in Stox book.
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Old 10-18-2008, 08:00 AM   #68
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Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

PF charts suck imo because they make you a robot and they dont teach you PF play as they make it to easy for you to just play like that robot and then blame it on variance and rake when you fidn out you are not good enough to win.

People spend too much time figuring out if they should b/f or b/c down turns and not nearly enough time figuring out when they can play A7o UTG, 73s OTB. Coldcall 75s OTB. Coldcall QJs in the SB etc etc etc. The scary part is that learning PF and getting good at PF is even easier than postflop. Yet a stunning amount of players in my games and based on what I read here at 2p2 absolutely SUCK at PF.

People get into religious fights whether the fold BB to steal should be 35 or 55. When the fact is that it doesnt really matter nearly as much as not knowing when to play A7o UTG and when to fold A9o, when to isolate a limper with Q6s and when to overlimp Q9s, when to coldcall a btn steal with JTs and when to 3-bet 65s and when to fold K9o, when to coldcap 66 or JTs and when to fold 99 or KQs to a 3-bet, etc etc etc
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Old 10-18-2008, 08:16 AM   #69
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Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

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Originally Posted by Oink View Post
PF charts suck imo because they make you a robot and they dont teach you PF play as they make it to easy for you to just play like that robot and then blame it on variance and rake when you fidn out you are not good enough to win.

People spend too much time figuring out if they should b/f or b/c down turns and not nearly enough time figuring out when they can play A7o UTG, 73s OTB. Coldcall 75s OTB. Coldcall QJs in the SB etc etc etc. The scary part is that learning PF and getting good at PF is even easier than postflop. Yet a stunning amount of players in my games and based on what I read here at 2p2 absolutely SUCK at PF.

People get into religious fights whether the fold BB to steal should be 35 or 55. When the fact is that it doesnt really matter nearly as much as not knowing when to play A7o UTG and when to fold A9o, when to isolate a limper with Q6s and when to overlimp Q9s, when to coldcall a btn steal with JTs and when to 3-bet 65s and when to fold K9o, when to coldcap 66 or JTs and when to fold 99 or KQs to a 3-bet, etc etc etc

oink, without a chart, they would have no where to start.

I don't think a chart is for seasoned players, but if I had been playing 2 months, something like this would be helpful

On the chart, it doesn't distinguish between an UTG raiser who is 30-7 and 66-44

if I have A3s on the button, i'm folding to the first, 3betting the second guy
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Old 10-18-2008, 08:47 AM   #70
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Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagliaGialla View Post
Hi oink, i've a question for you. I've seen your videos of deucescracked, and i've found them very interesting and very useful for me.
In the first video, when you play on party 5-10 or 2-4, you use your lagTag stile. I play on ipoker 2/4, where the rake is very very high. Is possible to play with profit your stile in this game? Or is better a standard tag stile 26/18?
thank you
Hi Maglia, since I have been playing these games lately I have an opinion on this. I have played in the 10/20 games Oink plays quite a bit in but have moved down stakes after a break from poker and cashing out quite a bit. Personally my preflop stats have gone from about 35/26 to about 30/22 so I have purposely tightened up quite a bit. I am sure a better player than me can play more hands though and maybe I can play a few more once I get more familiar with how people play at this level.
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Old 10-18-2008, 01:35 PM   #71
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Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

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Originally Posted by NinaWilliams View Post
I know the idea of being able to do whatever the **** you want preflop and still crush the games is very sexy and is the "in" thing this season, but playing well preflop is very key to becoming a successful LHE player.
I think not understanding this is a leak in a lot of good players' games. They see very good players play very agro styles and they assume that it means that pf isn't that important and these guys are just trying to get into hands to use their postflop skills, but that isn't even most of the reason why they're playing the hand. There's a lot of subtle factors that make raising a very weak hand from the BT or 3-betting a substandard holding correct or not. It's good players ablity to distiguish the guys that fold too much or are otherwise highy exploitable postflop and those players which are tilting from other players. It's not a simple thing, and I think there's a lot of good players out there that could get better at playing pf.
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Old 10-18-2008, 06:34 PM   #72
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Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oink View Post
For sure


Is it optimal? Maybe I dunno

Can you make it profitable? Well that depends on your skill level postflop relative to your opponents. So that depends on how many fish you find in your games and how well you table select. If you dont table select and you play a lot with other rakeback grinders and you arent very competent then playing a 32/22 style is most likely not optimal or even profitable.


I dont think you should worry about these things. I think you should worry about your game and your understanding of when you should play 40/30 and when you should play 27/20. How does game conditions affect your optimal strategy. THATS the key!

Untill you get those fundamentals down I would advice you to play a style as advocated in Stox book.

Thank you Oink.
Now i'm playing 4 table, and on ipoker 2/4 is not very simple to do a good table selection (there are not much table to play at that limit). So if i can, I always take the best table, where i can find 1 or more fish to my right. There are a lot fish on ipoker, but there are also much standard tag rackeback grinders like me.
I don't play Following a chart, but when i play 4 table my automatic game brings me to be a 22/18, with foldToBB to steal about 51.
For me is diffdicult understand when correctly i can overlimp, cooldcall, openlimp etc.This is the point where i must work.
I've read the stox book. Is it very useful for the blind difense and the game hu postflop. When i'm hu postflop with a tag or lag, i play following what is advocated in stox book (turn value check etc...)
So, now i'm looking your video on Deucescracked, that are very useful to improve my game.
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Old 10-18-2008, 09:52 PM   #73
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Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

Quote:
I think there's a lot of good players out there that could get better at playing pf.
Leader is my girl, imo
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Old 10-18-2008, 10:37 PM   #74
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Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

I think you should worry about your game and your understanding of when you should play 40/30 and when you should play 27/20. How does game conditions affect your optimal strategy. THATS the key!


so when be a 40/30, when people fold too much postflop an are tight?
27/20 when we are on loose table?

And many times i see people say i 3bet light if my opponement fold postflop.
So if vilain raise hero 3bet : flop J82 vilain c/f after that you want to 3bet him very light?
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Old 10-19-2008, 02:05 AM   #75
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Re: Beginner PF Play with Starting Hand Charts

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Originally Posted by sebastien View Post
so when be a 40/30, when people fold too much postflop an are tight? 27/20 when we are on loose table?
If you play in a relatively low rake environment with a perfect seat with fish or two on your right and tight and passive players on your left, you should play ****loads of hands when the fish limp, either by iso-raising or over-limping. Since the players on your left aren't 3-betting you lightly, you should just keep isolation-raising the fish constantly. When the bad players fold and you are in a stealing position, you should open a ton of hands against those tight and passive players because they fold too much. And when you are in the blinds and it's raised and cold-called by the fish on your right you should play very loosely. If it's open-limped by the fish and you're in the SB, you should complete the SB very loosely. (Assuming again that the BB isn't raising a ton.) And so on. This is how you become 40/30.

But if you're in a high rake environment with no huge fishes in the table and/or on the other side of the table and you have LAGTAGs on your left who 3-bet a ton and are showdown monkeys, you have no option but to tighten up a notch and so you become 28/20 or whatever.

Loose table => lots of bad players => lots of reasons to enter the pot.
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