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Old 06-17-2017, 08:57 PM   #1
suchj0sh
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AKs Hand

4/8 LHE, extremely loose table, maybe the best table I've ever seen.

Villain 1: Loose pre with almost no raising range pf. Mostly passive post, but have seen him semibluffing draws occasionally. Is on a very big heater and is up several racks.

Villain 2: Playing 90% of hands and raising nearly all of them. Is very short after consistently calling down multiway with the worst of it for the last hour.

Preflop:

V2 limps to me in the HJ, I raise AKhh. Villain calls CO, V2 LRR. I call, V1 calls.

There is a 5 bet cap. Should we be 4-betting here?

Flop: Tc7c3h

V2 checks, I check, V1 bets, V2 raises all-in for $8, I call, V1 calls.

Thoughts on calling 2 here?

Turn: (Tc7c3h) Ts

I check, V1 bets, I?
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Old 06-17-2017, 09:41 PM   #2
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Re: AKs Hand

Easy 4 bet pre-flop. As played I'm not folding this flop either.
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Old 06-17-2017, 09:57 PM   #3
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Re: AKs Hand

4 bet preflop especially with the guy almost all in. I'd bet the flop. As played I'm not folding
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Old 06-18-2017, 10:30 AM   #4
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Re: AKs Hand

My thought on not 4-betting was to not shut out Villain 1, though I think it is somewhat likely he may come along even for 2 more.
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Old 06-18-2017, 12:42 PM   #5
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Re: AKs Hand

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Originally Posted by suchj0sh View Post
My thought on not 4-betting was to not shut out Villain 1, though I think it is somewhat likely he may come along even for 2 more.
Unlikely he will fold, but if he actually did, that would probably be the best result. Dead money is always good, plus you would then have best position.

Last edited by chillrob; 06-18-2017 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 06-18-2017, 04:49 PM   #6
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Re: AKs Hand

Yeah I was a little lost in this spot pf. Obviously gaining position would be good, but I wasn't sure if isolating $8 behind would be the most profitable play.

River: (Tc7c3hTs) Kd

I check, V1 bets again.
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Old 06-18-2017, 05:03 PM   #7
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Re: AKs Hand

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Originally Posted by suchj0sh View Post
Yeah I was a little lost in this spot pf. Obviously gaining position would be good, but I wasn't sure if isolating $8 behind would be the most profitable play.

River: (Tc7c3hTs) Kd

I check, V1 bets again.
Continue not to fold.
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Old 06-19-2017, 05:30 AM   #8
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Re: AKs Hand

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Originally Posted by suchj0sh View Post
Yeah I was a little lost in this spot pf. Obviously gaining position would be good, but I wasn't sure if isolating $8 behind would be the most profitable play.

River: (Tc7c3hTs) Kd

I check, V1 bets again.
Consider raising, never folding. I think call is best.
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Old 06-19-2017, 05:36 AM   #9
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Re: AKs Hand

I think I might donk/fold the river.
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Old 06-19-2017, 12:49 PM   #10
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Re: AKs Hand

I guess I thought this hand was a bit more interesting than it is. The preflop spot and the river being the most interesting.

On the river, how often is a straightforward player 3-barreling into a protected pot with worse?
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Old 06-19-2017, 04:42 PM   #11
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Re: AKs Hand

Once people call one bet preflop in 4/8, they're calling all bets.
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Old 06-19-2017, 05:08 PM   #12
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Re: AKs Hand

Limp re-raisers in first position often have AA-KK.

Indeed, when I see an unknown sober person do this in a low stakes game, I don't raise unless I can beat that range on later streets. (Although the fact that he was short-stacked does change things somewhat.)

I think the size of the pot forces you to x/c three streets here. I think any other line is wrong.
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Old 06-19-2017, 05:10 PM   #13
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Re: AKs Hand

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Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
Limp re-raisers in first position often have AA-KK.

Indeed, when I see an unknown sober person do this in a low stakes game, I don't raise unless I can beat that range on later streets.
That is generally accurate. But in this hand the guy who pulled the stunt was playing 90% of his hands, raising a lot, and was short-stacked enough that he was all in after the flop. In this case he could have anything and just wants to kamikaze all of his chips in ASAP.
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Old 06-19-2017, 05:13 PM   #14
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Re: AKs Hand

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Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
Limp re-raisers in first position often have AA-KK.

Indeed, when I see an unknown sober person do this in a low stakes game, I don't raise unless I can beat that range on later streets. (Although the fact that he was short-stacked does change things somewhat.)

I think the size of the pot forces you to x/c three streets here. I think any other line is wrong.
Villain 2's range is nowehere near this narrow on this occasion. He has been a maniac at the table the entire time I've been there and he only has 2.5 BB to start the hand.

Last edited by suchj0sh; 06-19-2017 at 05:17 PM. Reason: What Rob said
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Old 06-19-2017, 06:06 PM   #15
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Re: AKs Hand

AKs is a raise/reraise pre any situation, any stakes (hu last to act excluded). Bet/call river.
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Old 06-20-2017, 12:19 PM   #16
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Re: AKs Hand

I'd 4 bet preflop. Then I'd call the flop. Then I'd call the turn. Then I'd check call the river for one but check fold for two.

Quote:
Once people call one bet preflop in 4/8, they're calling all bets.
Generally this is true. However:

Once upon a time I raised two limpers when I had KK. three calls behind me, small blind 3 bets, big blind folds, one limper folds, one limper calls, I 4 bet, everyone behind me folds, small blind lol folds for one small bet in 4 bet cap game getting ten thousand to one, other limper calls and we go heads up to the flop for like 20 small bets or so.
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Old 06-20-2017, 12:58 PM   #17
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Re: AKs Hand

We have we have AK which makes the LRR even less likely to be AA KK.
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Old 06-20-2017, 01:20 PM   #18
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Re: AKs Hand

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I'd 4 bet preflop. Then I'd call the flop. Then I'd call the turn. Then I'd check call the river for one but check fold for two.
It's not going to be two bets to you on the river when there's only one other guy left with chips.
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Old 06-20-2017, 06:57 PM   #19
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Re: AKs Hand

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Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
It's not going to be two bets to you on the river when there's only one other guy left with chips.
But if it is you should definitely fold.
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Old 06-20-2017, 08:09 PM   #20
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Re: AKs Hand

You should definitely 4bet preflop.

As played, I like donking river and cry-calling a raise. Your hand looks like AK and V1 is not going to bluff into a protected pot. The $ will go in better when you donk than when you call a bet.
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Old 06-22-2017, 03:36 AM   #21
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Re: AKs Hand

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You should definitely 4bet preflop.

As played, I like donking river and cry-calling a raise. Your hand looks like AK and V1 is not going to bluff into a protected pot. The $ will go in better when you donk than when you call a bet.
The fact that you are going to have to donk-call, and not donk-fold, is what makes the donk problematic. It's just a ridiculously exploitable play when everyone knows exactly what you have. Sometimes it's OK to miss a value bet on the river.
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Old 06-22-2017, 03:37 AM   #22
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Re: AKs Hand

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Originally Posted by holmfries View Post
We have we have AK which makes the LRR even less likely to be AA KK.
I'm willing to accept that this villain may not be doing this.

But I stronly recommend that people not assume AK is blocking anything in the standard limp-re-raise scenario at low limits. Too many players have precisely AA-KK as their range for this play, and your having AK doesn't change that.
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Old 06-22-2017, 04:02 AM   #23
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Re: AKs Hand

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Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
The fact that you are going to have to donk-call, and not donk-fold, is what makes the donk problematic. It's just a ridiculously exploitable play when everyone knows exactly what you have. Sometimes it's OK to miss a value bet on the river.
I don't think you have to. Just donk-fold. At a 4-8 game in a protected pot with one player all in, no one is going to raise worse on the river here.
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Old 06-22-2017, 07:55 AM   #24
suchj0sh
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Re: AKs Hand

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Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
I don't think you have to. Just donk-fold. At a 4-8 game in a protected pot with one player all in, no one is going to raise worse on the river here.
I'm concerned that they aren't even betting the river with worse when checked to, much less raising if I donk.

Also, I don't think my hand is THAT face up as someone else suggested. I raised a limper from the HJ and called a LRR. I feel like I can have more hands by the river than just AK.
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Old 06-22-2017, 12:09 PM   #25
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Re: AKs Hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
I'm willing to accept that this villain may not be doing this.

But I stronly recommend that people not assume AK is blocking anything in the standard limp-re-raise scenario at low limits. Too many players have precisely AA-KK as their range for this play, and your having AK doesn't change that.
Across 3/6, 4/8, 8/16, and 20/40, I've seen the limp-reraise be [random drawing hand] far more than [KK,AA].
Is the villain a gambler or a nit? That should be enough of a read to give a good idea of what the LRR means.
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