Table is 7-handed. MP limps, BN calls, I raise QQ from SB, BB calls, MP now 3bets, BN calls, I cap and four of us take a flop.

J88 (16 SB)
When MP limp/3bets, I put him on a premium PP because that's what people like to do in NL, which is the game I'm transitioning from. I can't see many 8/16 players doing this with 99 or AJ type hands. MP is also a WG in his early 30s, so decades younger than a typical 8/16 player fwiw. He bought in for two racks and seems semi competent at the very least.

Anyways I decide to X to him since I can't beat JJ anymore. He bets, and we all call. I know most will say raise but i didn't feel like getting into a raising war vs the range I put him on.

Turn K (4-way for 10 BB)
X to MP who bets, BN folds. Can't beat AK now but maybe he has a FD or some kind of Jx. I call.

HU to riv: J (12 BB)
MP bets. Can't beat Jx now. I sigh call.

Thoughts?

Your hand reading could use some work. I doubt this player was only limp-reraising with a big pair, but players who do play like that generally only do it with AA or KK, so if that was your read it doesn't make any sense to cap it preflop. If you don't really put him on that, so you decided to cap it, I would just lead out on the flop.

Honestly not sure what to tell you about the rest of the hand without better reads; it is kind of a crappy spot. Seems like you're almost always beat on the river, but you played the hand so oddly it's hard to say for sure.

I think capping pre is fine. I like a bet on the flop after you cap. JJ makes up a small part of his range and you can't be worried that someone has flopped the nuts against you all the time.

At every stage, your read is that you are badly behind, yet you stay in the hand. You are good for the game.

Maybe your reads are right, maybe they are wrong, but what's the point if you don't use them? If you believe your opponent has something, and decide to call down to confirm your read, that's okay once in a while. Doesn't sound like that's what happened here, though.

It may make sense to think in terms of how far from the button he is. Mp is a little misleading in a 7h game. Hes prolly the hijack.

His pf play is terrible. I like capping pre 4 ways even if im uneasy that his lrr could be a narrow range.

I would bet the flop for value and because giving free cards is very costly at this potsize vs 3 opponents. But im just getting to sd against further agg.

The board runs out badly but i think calling and making a note is pretty standard given the price youre getting.

Why would you cap if you put him on a range of hands that's ahead of you on a board like J88r? Flop is a mandatory bet as played.

I capped it because BB was still left to act and I was hoping to get him out. But I should know better than that...when people are in for 2, they're in for 4.

What would be the standard way to play this? I assume capping pre is fine, and we cbet. BB calls and say MP raises and BN calls.

1) Do we 3b flop and call a cap?
2) Say MP caps flops and we see this turn. Do we X/c?
3) Say MP flats our 3b OTF and we're the last aggressor. Do we bet this turn?

I capped it because BB was still left to act and I was hoping to get him out. But I should know better than that...when people are in for 2, they're in for 4.

What would be the standard way to play this? I assume capping pre is fine, and we cbet. BB calls and say MP raises and BN calls.

1) Do we 3b flop and call a cap?
2) Say MP caps flops and we see this turn. Do we X/c?
3) Say MP flats our 3b OTF and we're the last aggressor. Do we bet this turn?

People who limp reraise in limit are generally bad players. Board sucks but I'm never folding.

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(1) I'm not 3 betting flop when we cap pre and get raised by MP
(2) I'd lean toward a x/f to a K OTT with that flop action
(3) Idk. This is a spot I myself am really uncomfortable with at this time. I think you turn your hand pretty face up if you check.

My play would be read dependent. If I thought MP's pre-flop limp/3bet meant AA/KK, I would not 4 bet QQ pre-flop.

If I 4 bet pre-flop, I would bet this flop.

The turn is where you need a good reads on MP's play. Some 8/16 players are betting this turn with hands like draws and and small pocket pairs, but in my experience most would not with any hand you are ahead of. These are the kinds of reads you need to be collecting on players.

If I decided MP might be doing this with air, I'd call down, but I'm inclined to fold this turn.

Why do you want him out? You need to improve to win. If you are ahead of BB and he doesn't have a good draw, then you need him putting chips in the pot in order to justify trying to outdraw the guy you are really afraid of. If he has a good draw, then the chips you are putting in will be going to him (cf Morton's Theorem).

In limit holdem, you must have the best hand or the best draw in order to be putting chips in voluntarily. If ever you think you don't qualify for either of those descriptions, then fold (or call of the pot odds are there).

You talk about raising to get other villains to fold a lot in multi way pots. I can't remember the last time I did that in limit. Value, the occasional free card play, heads up bluff. That's almost all of my raising.

I play with a 5 bet cap so it would play out slightly different for me in this position, but if I cap pre I'm betting any over pair on this flop. If he raises I most likely call to see the turn and x/f unimproved there if I think I'm behind and I go 3 if I think I'm ahead.

As played I think you have to call the river.

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+1

I hear you although it sounds like you're talking about the flop, not pre. I capped pre hoping to get BB to fold (or put in extra money with a worse hand) and go to the flop 3-handed instead of 4. With QQ I may not need to improve to win if MP has AK. And since its pre, BB can't have a draw yet.

Btw I capped pre, not OTF. And again the goal was to fold out BB and go 3-handed, but that's clearly an exercise in futility in limit

The problem with that reasoning is you said you put him on a premium pocket pair. QQ isn't doing well against that range, which means you're drawing, and shouldn't want the 3rd player to drop.

Understood. I should have flatted the 3b.

He's talking about preflop. If you think he has a hand that is beating you on a flop like J88 (aces, kings) then you shouldn't be capping pre. If you do cap because you think you have the best hand (villain does not have AA, KK), then you are ahead on this flop and should bet.

Not necessarily.

It just depends on what his range is.

If you think he limp/3-bets TT+ AK, you beat enough of that to cap pre but you should also bet the flop.

If you think he limp/3-bets JJ+ only, you should both call pre and check the flop.

The problem is that people don't have as much definition in their ranges. Honestly sometimes MP here just has 87s because he got bored and wanted to dick around. Sometimes he has 76s for the same reason and wants to rep 87s.

Yeah, I'm not saying that the capping preflop was wrong, just that it doesn't match with the reads given and the reason given for capping. You just need to think more thoroughly about your reads and what you want to accomplish.

This is laughably bad advice. I don't mean to call you out, but there are plenty of spots where you should be putting in chips where you have neither the best draw nor the best hand. I mean, if this were true, one would never, ever bluff on the river.

Sorry, thought it was obvious I was not talking about bluffing situations. I'm talking straight-up value betting. The advice given is very general, and of course there are exceptions, but not that common. The situation as presented involved trying to knock out a player (who won't be knocked out) who you shouldn't be trying to knock out. The advice quoted says why that is so. You reap the rewards of your raise neither when he calls, nor when he folds.

It is implied, also, that this is only for multiway pots. It also does not prohibit you from calling when the odd are correct. In a three way contest, someone has to have at most 1/3 equity. He should not be raising (except as a bluff). Even four way, it would be very rare for more than two players to have more than 1/4 equity each.

This. B/c flop, x/f turn. We beat only his pure air hands here and the way the action went, he probably has exactly AA.