Live 8-16

Raise AQ in co, sb calls, bb calls.

Flop is Ad8d8

checked to, we bet, fold, call.

Turn is 7h

Bet, Villain check raises..

Call down here?

Nothing notable about villain other than he's only been at the table for 30 minutes or so and hasn't been involved in many pots.

Can AJ, AT be in villain range with some flush draw or even AQ ? Why not ?
You have as well 2 Aces in the deck if you face trips.
I do not think i ever fold here unless i would faced a very bad calling station and even than...
i mean i do not think this is a spot you make a tons of money by folding correctly but if you fold incorrectly i think it is a spot that could cost you a lot of money pretty quickly.
But on this i might be very wrong according to a lot of player here .

If he is under 60 years old I'm paying him off.

I don't fold AQ in any spot

Yeah fur coats blah blah. Call like every time till you know him by heart. Then fold once and call every other time

I agree with the others.

Is there a point were checking the turn makes sense? It seems A6 would be good to check and call any river..maybe A9?.

In this spot you pretty much have to do what you did...unless its the lil ole lady who NEVER bets anything but the nuts. make a crying call and hope you don't see n 8 on river. Never a point where checking turn makes sense.

sometimes you get cold decked.

most of the time they call down with 55 like a good fish

It sounds like he has 30 minutes of history with the villain and I think that's all that needs to be said.

I'm shocked there's so few people advocating for bet/folding the turn when we just got fish-nut-lined on A88 in a live game where the small bet is in the single digits. I don't think I've ever been xr in a small game by anyone over the age of like 30 with less than an 8 here*

*smallish sample of a few hundred live 10/20- hours.

I'd never fold at 8-16 v. an unknown but I also sometimes check back the turn in those spots and use the money to call a river bet bec c/r w/ an 8 on the turn is the *standard* play at that limit.

I think this is an underrated play when you flop top pair on dry paired flops heads up, both out of position and in position.

Basically, you (1) catch bluffs which you no longer fold to, (2) still get value from weaker top pair hands (because they will bet), and (3) avoid paying the maximum to the LOLslowplay trap from the players who wait for the turn with trips.

Agreed. I advocated this line in a thread a while back in this kind of spot and the approval rating was pretty small. I use this line a lot in spots like this and I think it has worked out extremely well for me. I don't see how anyone can think it is better to bet $16 on the turn and fold to a raise (or call down - Gasp!) than it is to check back the turn and get to showdown for the same price. I also find it amazing that no matter how many times I take this line in this scenario, no one EVER adjusts. They continue to try and check-raise me on the turn.

Also, it's okay to use some live reads to help determine when betting the turn is the better option. Some people are pretty transparent about their strength and weakness.

See the sticky at the top.

Bet your damn hand.


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I think that vs any realistic range, AQ is doing quite well on the turn; if bet fold is the highest ev line because of our opponent's strength when check raising the turn, then I think it would follow that we're getting check raised so infrequently that the damage to our winrate from calling down the extra 2 big bets drawing nearly dead is negligible and is more than compensated by all the times that the big blind either check folds the turn, or calls down with a weaker hand.

For that reason, I think both bet folding the turn and bet calling the turn can both be a part of a winning strategy. I never check back this turn with these positions.

I'm assuming that all the small stakes games are essentially the same when I say that we all get c/r'd regularly in these spots. It's the standard play by most of the small stakes crowd. Then we come on here and ask what we should do. My answer: Don't step into the brown pile on the sidewalk. There's also the further consideration: BB might fold to a turn bet but take a swing w/ nothing otr in which case we make more. In sum: I really don't think that checking back the turn w/ the intention of calling the river bet should be considered unreasonable.

It's not unreasonable at all. In fact I think it's quite profitable. I just think that other lines have higher expected value.

I like checking the turn as an option. Saving two bets in a smallish heads up pot, allowing opponent to bet worse for value and bluffs losing minimum to an 8.

If you check, you're also giving free cards to flush draws, which should be a large part of his range after flop call, probably the majority.

I bet / fold vs most opponents at 8/16.

It's easy to say bet/fold but, in practice, many (most?) of us call down like chumps and then feel like a chump also. Not bet/folding a hand w/ a great deal of show down value is a consideration as well as allowing us to hit OUR 2-outer. Check back the turn is not something I advocate as the default, just something to consider as not being horrible.

One of the things about this situation is that I am sure that if you plugged it into a GTO bot, folding to a turn raise would be out of the question. We're way too high up in our range, a good player should be raising some turns with hands we beat (whether they are semi-bluffed flush draws or even weaker aces), plus we have our 2 basically completely clean outs when we are beat. I don't know if the GTO bot would bet-3-bet, bet-call, or check-raise-call, but I'm pretty darned sure it isn't folding.

So when you get raised on the turn, if you fold, you better be darned sure. You are folding a hand with a ridiculous amount of value, based on a read that says that the opponent will literally only raise the turn with trips or better.

It seems to me that if you have that read and are completely sure about it, sure, bet-fold the turn. But if you don't have that read and are going to have to call 2 and call down, you have to take into consideration the fact that there are only 2 aces left in the deck and 2 8's, and you will (to oversimplify things some) be paying 3BB's half the time and winning 2BB's the other half of the time. So you need a significant number of flush draws in your opponent's range.

This is a call or 3b, never a fold vs unknown

3 betting an unknown live 8/16 player with AQ on A88-x when they xr turn. That's funny.