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8/16 KK OTB

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08-01-2017 , 02:32 PM

Muck_McDermott

newbie

Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 36

8/16 KK on the button

UTG+1 Raise, MP call, I three bet, both players call.

Flop: JsQc10d (5BB)

UTG+1 bet, MP fold, I raise, he calls.

Turn: Kd (7BB)

UTG+1 C/r

Tough call or easy lay down?

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08-01-2017 , 02:36 PM

Crispix

centurion

Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 178

Any reads on villain? I need a strong read to fold this hand even though an A in his range is very likely.

If readless, I call turn and river, raise improvement. I'd expect villain to show AQ here a lot.

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08-01-2017 , 02:40 PM

suchj0sh

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 224

Turn seems an easy call, we're getting 10:1 with 10 outs to a full house or quads. Aces for chop outs as well.

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08-01-2017 , 02:52 PM

Muck_McDermott

newbie

Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 36

No reads, but this game is often LAGgy. I expect him to have AQ, or AJ here most of the time, blocking my chop and boat outs. I put 99 in his range as well in this particular game.

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08-01-2017 , 03:00 PM

holmfries

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 6,301

Calling once raised seems trivially easy. Decision to bet the turn seems pretty read dependent. How often do you think UTG is just going to donk aces? In my game, they almost always donk so betting for value seems fine but onc raised I would just fold if the river blanks.

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08-01-2017 , 03:25 PM

jdr0317

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 8,231

I'd probably check the turn, but I can be convinced it's not the best play.

As played, you have a draw. Folding an up to 10 out draw at this price is bad. So call and try to spike your boat.

As others mentioned, we can also chop when an Ace comes.

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08-01-2017 , 03:48 PM

SetofJacks

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,378

I generally just call down from the flop donk if the other player is even remotely decent.
Your 3-bet, along with this board, is going to have you heavily weighted towards sets, broadway, TPTK, and overpairs (and sometimes 88 and 99).
He doesn't seem to care that this is your overall range.

Given that KK is at the bottom of your apparent range, I don't think raising gives much value, and players will often be donking so that they can 3-bet (or in this case, so they can call and c/r turn).
Call flop, call turn, call river (in case he's barreling TT, JJ, QQ, KQ) unless you make a boat or quads.

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08-01-2017 , 05:03 PM

Muck_McDermott

newbie

Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 36

The general consensus here is call the x/r on the turn, as I thought it would be. Looking back, I should have probably checked it back and gotten to showdown for 1 more BB instead of 2. My thinking in this review is the consideration that maybe this could be a spot to potentially save 2 BB with a nitty fold, assuming villain is holding some of my outs. I ended up calling, the turn, and then faced a 12:1 decision to SD

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08-01-2017 , 05:06 PM

chillrob

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Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 20,908

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muck_McDermott

I probably would have checked back turn as well. But I don't get the thinking that you might fold on the turn. If you are behind, villain can't be blocking more than one of your outs. Even if he donked turn and showed you he had AK, folding would be terrible getting 8 to 1 for your 9 out draw (plus 3 more outs to a chop). And that is the worst case scenario!

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08-01-2017 , 05:28 PM

#10

lawdude

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 10,305

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdr0317

I agree about checking the turn. Of all the one card straights, the one with the ace in it shows up by far the most in a UTG+1 raiser's distribution. I know, I know, "we have a set", but there's just so many aces in the villain's range.

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08-01-2017 , 06:56 PM

#11

asmitty

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,446

I also check back turn (and tbh would do so with anything other than Ax). You get to raise the river a lot when you improve, you get a free card, and you can occasionally induce villain to do something spastic on the river.

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08-01-2017 , 07:19 PM

#12

ninefingershuffle

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 3,543

I'd like to hear more thoughts on the flop. Pretty ballsy to donk there against a 3 bettor when AK is the nuts and 88 is drawing dead

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08-01-2017 , 08:52 PM

#13

jdr0317

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 8,231

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle

I'd like to hear more thoughts on the flop. Pretty ballsy to donk there against a 3 bettor when AK is the nuts and 88 is drawing dead

If a competent player or passive player donked here, I'd just call. If an aggromonkey bets, I'd raise.

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08-01-2017 , 09:01 PM

#14

suchj0sh

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 224

Raising blank turns if we just flat the flop donk?

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08-02-2017 , 12:49 AM

#15

RadioMike

centurion

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 112

I have played this exact same hand. I did the same thing, just firing the turn bet out there with the set, and regretted it instantly. They aren't calling with two pair in this spot. They either fold or c/r. The turn bet has no purpose, unless you think you can get a 9 out.

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08-02-2017 , 10:40 AM

#16

lawdude

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 10,305

Quote:

Originally Posted by RadioMike

people call with 2 pair and certainly with sets, so it isn't as though there is no value. Indeed there are other four to a straight boards where you definitely must bet top set for value.

It just happens that in this particular situation, the card that makes the straight is also one that shows up in your opponent's range a lot.

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08-02-2017 , 01:18 PM

#17

Eric

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Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 13,864

Quote:

Originally Posted by lawdude

Sets might call. Two pair will rarely call a bet on that board from a player whose range at that point is built around an A. If nothing else, they will be afraid of someone else with an A or 9, if is multi on the river. If they even think a little further and accept that the bettor could have a big pair, they are still toast and won't call.

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08-02-2017 , 02:02 PM

#18

SetofJacks

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,378

Quote:

Originally Posted by suchj0sh

Raising blank turns if we just flat the flop donk?

Raising the turn if an ace comes.
Raising the river if we go runner-runner full house.

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