EP and MP limp, I limp K8 in CO (let me know if this is ok), blinds X.

5-way (5 SB): 765
EP bets, MP calls, I raise, EP 3bets. She's a typical loose passive showdown monkey so when she repops me she has a big hand here...2P+ and probably a set or straight.

MP hesitates and looks like he wants to fold but calls, I cap fully intending to take a free card if X to OTT. Both call.

3-way (8.5 BB): K
EP bets. So much for the free card. MP fish AI for $4, I call.

HU (10.5 BB): T
EP bets.

I know we're not supposed to fold for one bet otr in big pots but I don't beat any hand she bets for value and my early read was that EP had a monster. There's like 0% chance she has hands like A7, A8, 99 or JJ here because she's LAP and wouldn't bet turn and riv into me after I capped flop. For the same reason I'm positive she'd never have the NFD here either. I've played with her before and I'm sure she'd xc 65 or 76 OTR rather than bc. It's unusual for such a passive player to show so much aggression.

Best play?

We can beat 6sXs, As4s, As9s, so I call and expect to lose. Maybe she shows up with 88/99 from time to time as well.

I'd also raise pre.

I think you really hurt your semi strong pair outs on the flop. I'd call the 3 bet hoping to raise a flush or straight on the turn, and draw for one or two bets when I miss the turn.

Me too but I don't think DTLB should yet.

easy call river

It depends pre.

Count combos of what you think she could have here on the river, put weights on them, and decide. You only beat a busted draw, 88,99, etc. But, you are getting odds.

Given your read, it's a fold, because she doesn't have things like As6s here.

I see no problem with folding this one. Unlike the AK hand with TPTK and facing a river check-raise as the only aggression (check-call, check-call, check-raise), you've got three full streets of aggression coming at you (bet/3-bet, bet, bet)*. They're very different situations. Your decision point is basically on the flop (since you're definitely seeing the river with the big draw), and you can look at your odds from that point on the calldown. It's a lot, lot worse than when you've got just a one street decision because of a river check-raise.

*Notice that it's theoretically possible that villain was on a combo draw and went nuts, but you block hands like A8s since you hold 8 in this case. You also hold K. Because of that, it's really hard to find a strong combo draw on the flop where villain can accidentally do something silly.

I think you can fold here...she shouldn't be bluffing into a dry side pot with the 3rd player all in.

+1. If a LP showdown monkey 3 bets this flop, why are we capping to try to get a free card? When a LP player starts showing aggression OTF, we are getting a free card like 0% of the time OTT.

Not sure I understand this. Could you explain further?

I capped because I figured I had enough pot equity to justify it even after giving EP a tight range. Plus maybe she 3b 2P and when I cap it she begins to fear I have a set or straight and goes into xc mode.

With each bet that goes in on the flop, your pair outs get weaker.

When the opponent bets the flop, they can have lots of stuff that your pair outs are drawing fine against. When you raise, you cut down on the chance that you can sucessfully value bet a turned or rivered pair of Kings; this is because you're less likely to be called down by worse hands due to your flop aggression. When your opponent 3 bets, they either have a huge draw or you're drawing to a flush or a straight and your pair outs are junk, which is evidenced by the river question as posed in your original post, which is probably a fold imo.

I'm not against the first flop raise, as I think it's quite profitable, but I'd call the flop because when I bet the turn and river when checked to after turning or rivering a pair of Kings or better, I often get called down by worse hands. However, you may not get this type of good action on just a pair of Kings if your opponents peg you as tight. I typically come off as a maniac and thus I get the action.

I see. Thanks for clarifying.

I have a couple of questions though. You say that if we call the flop 3b and turn a pair of Kings or better, we have a better chance of being called down after its X to us and we bet. But aren't we more likely to be X to OTT after we cap the flop? I feel it's rare that a player will bet/3b flop oop and then X the turn, whereas when they get capped it's natural for them to X to the raiser on the next street (so when they lead into me OTT it confirms to me that they have a monster and not a draw).

Also, if we're not capping this flop then does that mean we're only capping flops with big made hands? Seems like it wouldn't be a bad idea to balance out that range with some big draws like this hand. This cap was actually for value because as one of three players I felt like my pot equity was well over 33%.

I usually don't fear not getting action on future streets IP after capping flop because they either have a monster that will bet or call, or they have a huge draw that will pay to see the river...meaning I could bet my Kings OTT and get called by worse.

What do you think?

Yes I only cap big made hands because of this:

It's a 5 way pot in a low stakes limit holdem game. The best hand is gonna win the vast majority of the time and it's probably not gonna be King high.

Probably, but usually when they 3 bet, they have a really good hand that might donk the turn anyways because they're not thinking about anything but their own absolute hand strength.

The "best" hand is not going to win the vast majority of time multiway. I limp Kxs all day there when chances of it getting raised behind me low.

I meant that the best hand at showdown is probably going to win, because there's a showdown in the vast majority of hands that have such preflop action.

Contrast the preflop action here with that of an online 3/6 game and the difference is ridiculous.

We agree that the hand will go to sd often given the pre flop action. But that encourages me to limp implied odds hands vs bad players.

I don't think limping is bad, necessarily. Sure some people will play badly postflop, but I think most beginners should play this preflop for a limp. I wasn't arguing otherwise. I was arguing that the flop raise hurts pair outs.