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Old 03-06-2017, 03:16 PM   #1
Ducky Medwick
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77 in SB after button raise

$4/8 live, but this is a kill pot. So limits for this hand are $8/16. I am in the $2 SB. SB and BB still post the regular $2 and $4 in a kill pot, even though limits are double.

EP limps for $8. MP calls. Since there has been no raise, action skips over killer (he gets last action unless it's been raised before him). Cutoff calls. The button (fairly solid) raises to $16.

I am next to act in SB, with 77. I call $14 cold. BB calls. Limpers and killer all call.

Flop:

7-Q-K. The queen and king are both hearts.

I bet $8. EP calls, MP folds, killer calls, cut off folds, button calls.

Turn:

5 (not a heart)

I bet $16. EP hesitates and then calls. Everyone else folds.

River:

10 (not a heart). I bet $16. EP raises to $32. I call.
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Old 03-06-2017, 03:27 PM   #2
suchj0sh
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Re: 77 in SB after button raise

Looks good to me. Call and lose sometimes.

X/r the flop may be better.

Last edited by suchj0sh; 03-06-2017 at 03:33 PM.
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Old 03-06-2017, 03:38 PM   #3
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Re: 77 in SB after button raise

I wouldn't donk. KQx with a flush draw? Seems like someone hit something, or will want to represent it, and will bet. My assumption is that the table will often shrug and call your c/r into the BTN's bet. The argument for donking would be that either BTN is unlikely to bet (for reasons?) or that he's going to "punish" you with his strong range by raising and you'll get to b/3b a lot. You can also get lucky and have someone who hit a pair or draw in earlier position donk and then help you build a pot.

IMO, the BTN will miss a lot of clearly good raising spots, so your b/3b chances aren't great. I think it won't check through often on this texture. So, I check intending to raise.
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Old 03-06-2017, 05:08 PM   #4
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Re: 77 in SB after button raise

Anyone else think three betting is defensible? We have two limpers and two random hands w/ live small bets out there, and this hand plays fine HU against a lot of reasonable player BTN raises v limpers. Maybe they're a little more passive at 4/8 w/ kill and call is better.

Check raise flop. This donk screams "monster" and I'd expect a nit to show up w/ KQ or 77 a ton when they lead this board (and given your past posts, I'd definitely have you pegged as a nit).

River is fine. Call. You probably lose. Sometimes they spaz or show KT, or some dumb hand that slowplayed to the river that you happen to beat.
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Old 03-06-2017, 05:50 PM   #5
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Re: 77 in SB after button raise

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Originally Posted by jdr0317 View Post
Anyone else think three betting is defensible?
I think so, but there's kind've a steep slope with the pocket-pairs, so I'd have to do some research. I think calling is fine, because you're getting the rest to call and odds to hit your set, but I wouldn't discount three-betting here. Live I probably call.

It'd be much easier to 3-bet w/ 99.
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Old 03-06-2017, 05:51 PM   #6
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Re: 77 in SB after button raise

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I wouldn't donk.
Agreed, this is perfect flop for a check-raise.
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Old 03-06-2017, 08:05 PM   #7
Ducky Medwick
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Re: 77 in SB after button raise

Thanks, guys. I agree I should have tried to check-raise the flop, rather than betting out. By betting out I'm allowing gutshot draws and middle / bottom pairs correct odds to call. After the hand was over, I realized I was in the perfect position to check-raise, with the PF raiser on my immediate right. Of course, he might not have bet. I do think pulling off the check-raise was my only chance to protect against 11-1 and 9-1 draws.

I really don't know about the preflop decision. I considered 3-betting, but the button raising multiple limpers in a kill pot, seemed pretty strong. I thought I might just be isolating myself against a better hand. But maybe a 3-bet still would have been better. The preflop decision doesn't bother me as much as my failure to go for a check-raise on the flop.
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Old 03-06-2017, 10:30 PM   #8
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Re: 77 in SB after button raise

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I do think pulling off the check-raise was my only chance to protect against 11-1 and 9-1 draws.
You have the lions share of equity. They are getting crushed $-wise. Every chip they put in the pot, they're getting a tiny fraction back. You're rooting for them to call once you c/r. Protect the pot? You have the best hand and you have the best draw. The fact that you're looking to protect your hand vs longshots is a big mental leak. You want to lay them the incorrect price to draw, and then you want them to call. Heck, let's hope a worse hand raises.
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Old 03-07-2017, 09:33 AM   #9
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Re: 77 in SB after button raise

This is a b3b on the flop given the button raise. If utg had raised this is an easy x/r. Two classics examples from SSHE of how to extract maximum bets from a flopped set in a multiway pot.
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Old 03-07-2017, 10:44 AM   #10
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Re: 77 in SB after button raise

If I thought the probability of limpers folding was postitive preflop, then I'd 3 bet. They're probably all calling though so calling preflop seems best without a read.

I'd check raise the flop.

As played I say nh on the turn and river.
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Old 03-07-2017, 12:56 PM   #11
Ducky Medwick
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Re: 77 in SB after button raise

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You have the lions share of equity. They are getting crushed $-wise. Every chip they put in the pot, they're getting a tiny fraction back. You're rooting for them to call once you c/r. Protect the pot? You have the best hand and you have the best draw. The fact that you're looking to protect your hand vs longshots is a big mental leak. You want to lay them the incorrect price to draw, and then you want them to call. Heck, let's hope a worse hand raises.
Thanks for the comment, Doug. Isn't protecting my hand against longshot draws important, though? It seems like I've read this many times in S&M and Miller. If the theory of LHE has evolved since those books were written, then that's fine. But according to the theory in their books, you want to make it incorrect for gutshots draws to call. But perhaps that is not applying to when I have a set, and more so applies to when I have an overpair or top pair.

If getting more money into the pot is what I want, however, then I don't understand the advice to check-raise. If the preflop raiser was on my left, then that would be the best way to get more money in. But the preflop raiser is on my right. Therefore I don't see how a check-raise is the best way to get maximum money in. If that is the goal, then the line I took (bet and hope to get raised so I can 3-bet) is right, and check-raising is wrong.
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Old 03-07-2017, 02:40 PM   #12
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Re: 77 in SB after button raise

The idea is that, yes, you lay them incorrect odds to call you, but you want them to make the mistake of calling. You win when your opponent makes mistakes, even when you lose the pot 1/6th of the time.
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Old 03-07-2017, 04:53 PM   #13
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Re: 77 in SB after button raise

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Originally Posted by suchj0sh View Post
The idea is that, yes, you lay them incorrect odds to call you, but you want them to make the mistake of calling. You win when your opponent makes mistakes, even when you lose the pot 1/6th of the time.
Example: I open AJo, get 3 bet next up and friend caps BTN.

A86r and I check raise my friend, guy calls 2 cold and eventually gets to show down the winner w/ Qs9s.

The fact is, I want him to make that 3 bet of my earlyish open, and I want him to call the flop getting 8.25:1 not closing the action w/ 9.3% equity. Being afraid of losing a big pot and getting sucked out on makes one forget how one actually makes money playing fixed limit hold em (playing a solid preflop strategy, putting in lots of money with the best of it and not a lot with the worst of it).
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Old 03-07-2017, 05:31 PM   #14
Ducky Medwick
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Re: 77 in SB after button raise

I agree with this. And thanks to everyone for the advice. I just wanted to confirm that everyone was in agreement that I should have check-raised, rather than bet out. The guy in EP had AJ offsuit, and he rivered the gutshot. I can't help but think that if I had check-raised the flop, confronting him with a double bet, that he probably would have folded. It was by far the biggest pot of the session, and it galls me that I probably would have won it if I had just check-raised like I was supposed to, rather than betting out.

I do understand that if I would have check-raised, I want him to call the 2 bets cold. By betting out I didn't force him to make as bad a decision.
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Old 03-07-2017, 05:46 PM   #15
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Re: 77 in SB after button raise

I would have tried for a check-raise on the flop as well; but don't be too resorts oriented. You don't really know what would have happened if you had done that.
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Old 03-07-2017, 06:45 PM   #16
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Re: 77 in SB after button raise

Going for a bet/3! with this many players in on this flop has to be fine unless the table is super passive.
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Old 03-07-2017, 07:22 PM   #17
Brad Childress
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Re: 77 in SB after button raise

I think c/r is standard but imo this is a spot that depends a lot on the makeup of the other players. Are there guys who donk a lot? Does the pf raiser raiser check behind here ever? Does the pf raiser just raise all draws and middle pairs and such? I would c/r but I can see lineups where b3b is correct.
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Old 03-07-2017, 09:34 PM   #18
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Re: 77 in SB after button raise

The problem with donking here is that a lot of players (me included) will just call you down with top pair top kicker.
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Old 03-08-2017, 12:12 AM   #19
Brad Childress
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Re: 77 in SB after button raise

That's fine if you have a specific read that this particular player has to donk huge (there are "solid" players with totally unbalanced donking ranges in spots like this, and sadly I always call them down even though TPTK might be a fold at some point), but in general this is leaving a lot on the table, TPTK is a good hand and worth more action.
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Old 03-08-2017, 05:14 AM   #20
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Re: 77 in SB after button raise

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Originally Posted by 6MaxLHE View Post
This is a b3b on the flop given the button raise. If utg had raised this is an easy x/r. Two classics examples from SSHE of how to extract maximum bets from a flopped set in a multiway pot.
^^^THIS!!!

I am surprised to see so much support for a CR.

However, it might depend on exactly what type of texture the table is. For instance, maybe a CR is correct in the Commerce $4/$8 games (I don't think it is). But it would be awful in a $4/$8 game at Red Rock in Summerlin.

In the latter, the flop gets checked through more than you might think. The limpers all "check to the raiser", and PFR has enough hands that he checks back. Not only do we miss the bets when that happens, but the turn can be difficult to play correctly depending what hits because you have no clue as to the holdings of your opponents. The sorta draw-heavy flop getting checked through multiway when first to act really makes this hand messy.
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Old 03-08-2017, 12:01 PM   #21
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Re: 77 in SB after button raise

I only check raise this flop because online poker has ingrained many habits for me. Checking flops without really thinking about what I'm doing is one of those habits. Thus I check raise the flop here without really considering any other option.

Bet 3 bet may in fact be best at small stakes live poker, but old habits die hard.
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Old 03-08-2017, 12:17 PM   #22
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Re: 77 in SB after button raise

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I only check raise this flop because online poker has ingrained many habits for me. Checking flops without really thinking about what I'm doing is one of those habits. Thus I check raise the flop here without really considering any other option.

Bet 3 bet may in fact be best at small stakes live poker, but old habits die hard.
the problem at small stakes is that players are generally pretty passive when it comes to raising, but will often cbet their entire range because they don't know what else to do.

3 bet pre flop.

as played, x/r flop.
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Old 03-08-2017, 03:09 PM   #23
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Re: 77 in SB after button raise

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the problem at small stakes is that players are generally pretty passive when it comes to raising, but will often cbet their entire range because they don't know what else to do.
I'm with rodeo. I think the BTN will be a really tight raiser, yet he'll over c-bet... say nearly 100%.
Quote:
Isn't protecting my hand against longshot draws important, though? It seems like I've read this many times in S&M and Miller.
No, it leads you to miss tons of value and to turn bluff catching hands into bluffs. You "protect" against longshot draws by helping them make the mistake that they want to make, calling when they shouldn't. You're sitting at a loose/passive table. What mistake is nearly every opponent eager to make? Calling too often. Help them.

What you're really trying to do, is pick out a few sentences from much longer passages, in an attempt to win the pot a higher % of the time. You're bluffing with the likely best hand, which is nuts. If you own 60% to 80% of the pot by having by far the best hand, how much of the remaining money do you want in the middle from the 4 people who are chopping up that 20% to 40% of the equity? All of it. Since it is limit, it goes in the slow way. You don't want them to "fold their longshot draws" because the additional 3BB they put in the middle is mostly your money.
Quote:
If the preflop raiser was on my left, then that would be the best way to get more money in. But the preflop raiser is on my right. Therefore I don't see how a check-raise is the best way to get maximum money in. If that is the goal, then the line I took (bet and hope to get raised so I can 3-bet) is right, and check-raising is wrong.
Go back to rodeo's post. Loose/passive villains don't thin value raise. If you were playing against him or me, donking would be correct (if you aren't a nit who only does so with a set). We would thin value raise you because TP with good kicker and some draws just have so much equity that we would correctly make a thin value play. Your 4/8 opponents will mostly be confused and call down.

OK, what about folding them out with a c/r? Is there really a 4/8 game where people always call for 1 and always fold for 2? If so, maybe you could c/r to protect your hand. It could be that you're so snug people will fold for you. If so, you're too passive and should fix that. You should be raising flush draws, straight draws, pair plus something else hands, and strong hands. Because your opponents don't understand your thin value raises, they should think you're a loose raiser. Even if not, people don't drive to the casino just to fold. My assumption is that many of the people who call 1 will also call 2. That's why you go home shaking your head about being unable to protect your hand. I would c/r, knowing that it won't protect my hand and then would be happy when AJ takes two to the face, calls, and wins. Maybe he'll just win the turn and we fill up and re-win on the river. Best hand and best draw.
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Old 03-08-2017, 06:55 PM   #24
Ducky Medwick
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Re: 77 in SB after button raise

Thanks, Doug. They did indeed all just call my donk bet, and at a 4/8 table they hardly ever thin value raise. So what you and Rodeo said is 100% true in the games I play in. I think the guy with AJ might have folded it if I had check-raised and forced him to call 2 cold. On the other hand he might have called anyway. But as you and others have pointed out, that is a good thing because he is making a mistake, and I want him to make that mistake. The way he called on the flop and turn, I thought he was on a heart draw, not AJ for the gutshot. I was hoping the river would be a heart that paired the board.
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Old 03-08-2017, 07:32 PM   #25
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Re: 77 in SB after button raise

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL View Post
You have the lions share of equity. They are getting crushed $-wise. Every chip they put in the pot, they're getting a tiny fraction back. You're rooting for them to call once you c/r. Protect the pot? You have the best hand and you have the best draw. The fact that you're looking to protect your hand vs longshots is a big mental leak. You want to lay them the incorrect price to draw, and then you want them to call. Heck, let's hope a worse hand raises.
add: ooh, missed the part where it says "after you c/r" thought you were saying lead. So, agree 100% w/ post

Meh, I agree with the overall concept that it's a mental leak, and that our opponents should put money in bad, and the AJ is a bad bet, but how bad? The pot's already 10 bets before the flop is spread. AJ has 4 outs, though slightly less as you have a re-draw to a fh. When you bet it's 11. It's still a fold unless you're closing the action w AJ, because of potential action behind, but it's closer than you think. Many low limit players will pay two for the gutter ball thinking they have 7 outs. And, I'm not even exaggerating. This is as often true as it is not. I am greedy and want the AJ to make a bet that's twice as bad.

Low limit players love anything representing a big pot, because to them it's their chances of going home even, or slight winner in the middle.

I moderately prefer a check-raise.

Last edited by leavesofliberty; 03-08-2017 at 07:39 PM.
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