UTG sat down about half an orbit ago, so no reads. The other 7 people are a typical loose-passive Winstar table.

UTG limps, UTG+1 limps, 3 more limpers and I'm on the BTN with AJs.
I raise.
SB folds, BB calls, UTG 3!, UTG+1 caps, 3 limpers all fold and I call. BB calls.

If I'm counting correctly, that's 18.5SB in the pot.

Flop comes J84 with one of my suit. Checks around to me and I bet. BB calls, UTG raises, UTG+1 coldcalls, I call, BB calls. 26.5sb now in the pot.

Turn is a 3 not matching my suit. BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 folds.

So adjusting for rake there's about 14BB in the pot. BB is passive and very unlikely to raise without the nuts.

I assume everything up to this point is 100% standard. With 5 outs to 2 pair or trips there's no way I'm folding here. MAYBE if BB raises and UTG 3-bets I can throw away my hand, but other than that I'm seeing a river, and if I only have to call one bet on the river I'm seeing a showdown even if the river is a
K or Q. Even though UTG probably has an overpair the pot's just too big to fold.

Thoughts?

I thin you played the hand fine and showing down vs readless villain is very standard. Your thinking is fine. Youre getting 15:2 to call down, at minimum. If he has one combo you beat, eg 76s, you can shut your eyes and click call twice. If youre asking us to tell you the difference between "can have" and "cant have" that one combo, its not for us to say. I assume they can until i think they cant.

I expect to see an overpair almost always here. But we have up to 5 outs v that, and we have no idea if this dude isn't just a big spaz. So I call down and really hate it. Not sure if there's any card I fold river on given our calldown rationale.

Inb4 lawdude tells you to check back the flop.

nh op call down

check the flop.

Isn't it 100% a big pair after an UTG LRR at at loose passive 4/8 table?

I see AK sometimes when players do this.

why not cap pf ?

UTG+1 wtf-capped it already.

Blech. I made a big post this morning but I guess it didn't go through.

This tends to be an overpair at low stakes but really villain dependent. The fact that he checked (presumably yo check raise UTG+1) really nails it IMO.

With that said, had UTG+1 coldcalled instead of wtfcapping I think capping on the button is a no-brainer. The information hiding alone is worth the extra four bucks and the possibility of taking a four-card flop is just bonus.

With that said, I wonder if UTG was ILovePoker929 or whoever that poster was about 3 years ago. Wasn't there a poster who argued that if you're in early position to 5 people you should ALWAYS go for a checkraise instead of betting out?

EDIT: Just now saw callipygian's post. Didn't even occur to me that he was trying to c/r UTG+1.

Not to derail my own thread here, but supposing for the sake of argument that UTG had a big pocket pair, what are the merits of betting out vs. going for a checkraise? I'm on the fence.

UTG+1 is very likely to not have much of a hand since it was a clear wtf-cap. There's a rare scenario where two limpers both have huge hands that they're both trying to limp-reraise but that's super unlikely.
Therefore, trying to check-raise UTG+1 is pure folly. UTG+1 is only going to bet if he connected hard with whatever trash he capped with pre.
And BTN is only going to bet if he connected as well given the strength that UTG showed preflop.

If you bet out, no one can check, but they can raise, allowing you to 3-bet.
Betting out is simply better.

oops lol miss read

IF:

a) the flop has 2 cards to a flush; and
b) UTG holds 10 9 with the OESD and FD; or
c) UTG holds either 10 9 or bigger cards (but not broadway) with a FD

Hasn't UTG played the hand exactly right?

Even with an big pocket overpair, i.e. AA or KK...or even perhaps AKs that is hit with the FD on the flop, isn't there an argument that the open limp from EP is not a bad decision in a loose passive game and again, UTG has played the hand correctly OTF and thereafter?

OP could confirm, but I think we have to assume rainbow flop since front door flush draw not mentioned.

jdr0317 is right, I need to start putting more effort into standardizing how I post live hands.

The flop was rainbow. I said it had one of my suit but I DIDN'T say the other two were also different.

My bad.

P.S. Open-limping AA or KK UTG is ABOMINABLY bad in a loose game. The looser and more passive the game the more likely you are to get cold-called by lower pocket pairs, suited aces, suited connectors, mid-to-high suited kings, two broadways etc. When you limp you allow other villains to make small mistakes at worst by limping along with trash and even limp along with speculative hands correctly. Give them the opportunity to make mistakes. If they don't, oh well, but sometimes they will. I've raised KK UTG and gotten 6 callers before. It's a thing of beauty.

I get that we should be rarely open limping, but here is Ed Miller advocating for cold calls with monsters in EP under the right conditions. Check out the video at 27:30. Is his reasoning not also applicable to an open limp under the same conditions?

Eh, it's a good play if you see someone behind you with a strong, trustable raising tell. Or for other particular table dynamics, like someone else nearly always raises but won't 3-bet, or people will call with weak hands for 2 bets, but not 3. But it shouldn't be anyone's standard play. Some lower limit players like to do it a lot though.

You probably lose but you should still call down. I would not raise any river card, would not bet the river UI if checked to me, and would not fold for one bet on the river.

I pledge my delegates to Smitty.

Hmm, I think I would raise a Jack on the turn or river.

I'd calldown without really considering any other option to the effect of even blurting out "what'd'ya got?" on numerous occasions. Sometimes I win, but most of the time I lose. It's just the nature of the profitability of calling down. You only get to win a fraction of the time, probably for even less return than you've invested previously in the hand.

Also think about the kind of range you want to be showing down vs such a strong line. You're rarely going to have a raising hand on the turn vs this line, but remember that you raised it preflop. This means that you, utg, and utg+1 should be the players that do the most showing down after such preflop action. Then when you bet the flop in such a multiway pot, I think your plan should be to showdown the vast majority of the time. Of course sometimes the action is too great to continue with a one pair hand, but I don't think this is one of those times.

Not at all, at least at Winstar. Players do this with all sorts of speculative hands such as 77 and 98s. And plenty of wildcards will LRR with anything just for the juice. I almost never see a LRR with AA/KK.

No river bet on a deuce?

Also falls into the "as you move up in stakes you lose these hands less and less often, so you better get use to calling down now" type hand, no?

Nope. I check back and pat myself on the back for saving a bet against his overpair.