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4/8 Canada acting on a read 4/8 Canada acting on a read

04-15-2017 , 09:16 AM
10-handed table, Canadian charity casino. V in button is a tight player preflop - seen him limpcall 88 and AQ.

I'm in the BB with AA.

5 limps around to villain, villain raises, SB folds, I 3!, one coldcall other 4 limpers fold (never ever ever ever seen that!!!!!), V 4!, I call, coldcaller calls.

16sb, flop comes 983r.

Checks around to villain who bets, I raise, fold, villain 3!.

I was actually surprised the villain 3! - I'd have thought he'd be the type of villain who would only do this with 2 pair or better, but there is no way this villain 4-bet 99, 88 or 98 - no way. I don't even think this guy would 4-bet JJ. And there's no way he's 3-betting me with AQ/AK-type hands - he's much too tight for that. He has KK or QQ. I decided, I'm making that read and I'm going to act on it - he has KK or QQ. So I 4-bet him. He called.

12BB, turn is a 5, no flush draws

I bet, V raises. This did give me pause, don't get me wrong - I'd be very surprised if this villain would go this crazy with one pair, especially considering I 3-bet him pre - is he even thinking about MY range??? What does he think *I'm* putting in so many bets with? But no, I made a read and I'm sticking to my read. I 3-bet, he 4-bets, I call.

20BB river is a Q

Here, as much as I don't want to, I decide to check-call. QQ is half the range I put him on. If he 2-outered me, that's poker - I shoveled money into the pot while I was ahead and that's all I can do. If this one of the rare hands where he'd actually go nuts with 99 or 88, that's poker. If he had KK himself and I just leveled myself out of a few more BB, that's poker.

Thoughts?
4/8 Canada acting on a read Quote
04-15-2017 , 09:39 AM
I like the hand as played except I'd bet call the river.

Quote:
QQ is half the range I put him on.
KK = 6 combos.
QQ = 3 combos

3/9 = one third.
4/8 Canada acting on a read Quote
04-15-2017 , 11:12 AM
I may be reading this wrong but their seems to be a disconnect here. I'm not buying the villian could only have KKs or QQs. Even if he does, I'm not buying he would go 4 bets with it on the turn. How many hours have you played woth this guy? There's practically nobody I would ever say "never" would do this or that. There is just way to small of a sample size in live poker.

I would just bet/call the turn. I think he has a set or the other AA's. Who 4 bets the turn with an overpair at 4/8? People don't even 3 bet sets sometimes.

As played, bet/ call seems horrific on the river. I just check/call.
4/8 Canada acting on a read Quote
04-15-2017 , 12:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan
casino. V in button is a tight player preflop - seen him limpcall 88 and AQ.
These are evidence of passive, not tight. I assume he's also tight.
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I was actually surprised the villain 3! - I'd have thought he'd be the type of villain who would only do this with 2 pair or better, but there is no way this villain 4-bet 99, 88 or 98 - no way. I don't even think this guy would 4-bet JJ.
So you have two pieces of evidence. Your preflop read that he has QQ+. Your postflop read that he has 2 pair or better. It means either one of those reads should be "most of the time" or "some of the time" or he's playing the hand out of character.
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I bet, V raises. This did give me pause, don't get me wrong - I'd be very surprised if this villain would go this crazy with one pair, especially considering I 3-bet him pre - is he even thinking about MY range??? What does he think *I'm* putting in so many bets with? But no, I made a read and I'm sticking to my read. I 3-bet, he 4-bets, I call.
The general rule is that early action means less than late action. So preflop < flop < turn. So your read on his preflop play should matter less to you than his turn action. You think he's really passive post flop but puts in 4 bets flop and turn? I don't care if the river is a 5 or an offsuit 2, I'm not excited about multiple river bets going in. Starting to think 99 and 76s might be on the menu more than 0%
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I decide to check-call. QQ is half the range I put him on. If he 2-outered me, that's poker - I shoveled money into the pot while I was ahead and that's all I can do.
I'm not there and don't have your exact read. At some point, he said he can beat AA. Pot is > 20BB, so totally willing to pay off. Cap two streets and want to put in more on the river? That's crazy.
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If this one of the rare hands where he'd actually go nuts with 99 or 88, that's poker. If he had KK himself and I just leveled myself out of a few more BB, that's poker.
If by going nuts with 99 you mean playing it correctly, then sure. If he had 88, maybe he has a set of rules where he wanted to limp it the time you saw it limped and he now plays it pretty OK.

Also, there is one combo of AA left for him to have. Sure it happens rarely that he has you beat. The villain happily putting in 8 bets with joy? Seems to indicate that something rare happened.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig
I may be reading this wrong but their seems to be a disconnect here. I'm not buying the villian could only have KKs or QQs. Even if he does, I'm not buying he would go 4 bets with it on the turn. How many hours have you played woth this guy? There's practically nobody I would ever say "never" would do this or that. There is just way to small of a sample size in live poker.

I would just bet/call the turn. I think he has a set or the other AA's. Who 4 bets the turn with an overpair at 4/8? People don't even 3 bet sets sometimes.

As played, bet/ call seems horrific on the river. I just check/call.
+1

Maybe people do, but passive players tend not to. With you that our hero seems to have played quite differently than his own reads.
4/8 Canada acting on a read Quote
04-15-2017 , 03:20 PM
Quote:
I would just bet/call the turn.
You're probably right that at 4/8 the maximally exploitive line is bet call the turn and check call the river.
4/8 Canada acting on a read Quote
04-15-2017 , 04:14 PM
Find your favorite way to make a decent number of bets post flop without putting in 10 or more postflop bets vs a nit with 1 pair vs a nit.
4/8 Canada acting on a read Quote
04-18-2017 , 06:05 PM
There is also the type of player who likes to "pot control" when they have good hands and gamble with bad hands.
Who's to say he doesn't have 98 just because he wouldn't raise with 99?
4/8 Canada acting on a read Quote
04-18-2017 , 06:24 PM
This looks like a standard x/r/4 flop or x/r/c to x/r turn spot, then a standard b/try to fold river.
4/8 Canada acting on a read Quote
04-19-2017 , 12:04 PM
DougL why do you say I played contrary to my own reads? Preflop of course I'm bloating the pot as much as possible and I played the flop and turn exactly how I'd have played them if I knew for 100% he had KK or QQ. The only reason I slowed down on the river is because QQ was part of the range I had him on.
4/8 Canada acting on a read Quote
04-19-2017 , 01:52 PM
Wouldn't it make sense for villain to have AA too?
4/8 Canada acting on a read Quote
04-19-2017 , 03:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan
DougL why do you say I played contrary to my own reads? Preflop of course I'm bloating the pot as much as possible and I played the flop and turn exactly how I'd have played them if I knew for 100% he had KK or QQ. The only reason I slowed down on the river is because QQ was part of the range I had him on.
You didn't really play turn the way you would if you knew he had KK or QQ, right? You stopped raising. Or is it really a 4-bet cap even when headsup?

Anyway though, I wouldn't have raised again there either. Probably wouldn't have 3 bet the turn, unless I had a read this guy spewed on the turn with one pair.

Echoing what others have said though, you can't still that hard to a pre-flop read. People always have a raise, and sometimes go crazy where you think they wouldn't, either preflop or later. But generally how they act later is more indicative of the actual strength of their hand.
4/8 Canada acting on a read Quote
04-19-2017 , 05:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan
DougL why do you say I played contrary to my own reads? Preflop of course I'm bloating the pot as much as possible and I played the flop and turn exactly how I'd have played them if I knew for 100% he had KK or QQ.
You went with your preflop read and ignored your post-flop read. You said this
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I'd be very surprised if this villain would go this crazy with one pair
OK, he won't go crazy with only a pair and you have only a pair. The villain took 2 aggressive preflop actions and 4 aggressive post flop actions. Two of the post flop aggressive actions were on a big bet street after you had shown a ton of strength. Why are only the preflop raises important?

Again, my point is that one of your two reads is wrong. Either he has something other than QQ+ or he's willing to put in a ton of action with only a pair or worse. Reassessing is fine, but it seems like you're only paying attention to his preflop play here.
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The only reason I slowed down on the river is because QQ was part of the range I had him on.
Count combos. If you were ahead flop and turn, math says you're find now. If you are 100% that QQ+ is his range... By the time we've capped a couple streets, my read is that he doesn't only have QQ+ and that I'll have some new info after showdown.

Honestly, the villain having the other AA would be the most boring outcome. OK, a guy like this might overplay AA because that's what he's waiting to raise. Any other outcome, you'll learn new stuff.
4/8 Canada acting on a read Quote

      
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