UTG + 1 raises. 3 callers. SB folds. I call in BB with QJ. I don't remember if it was suited or not but I don't think that would affect my preflop decision.

Read on UTG, old man but he seems to understand what a good hand is. I've seen him 3-bet AK preflop. Other 3 callers are all typical loose passive types.

Flop is K T 8
Hero checks. UTG bets. 1 fold. 2 calls. Hero check raises. UTG 3 bets. 2 folds. Hero calls.

Turn is A

Hero checks. Villain checks.

River is K

Hero bets. Villain raises. Hero calls.

That's how I would play it.

Why did you check-raise the flop? Were you trying to trap the field for an extra bet? If you do have enough equity with six clean outs against three opponents to raise for value, it's probably very thin. Plus when UTG 3! and blows away the field it ruins your implied odds. What happens with a call to close the action and evaluating the turn?

Why did you check the turn when you made your hand? Does old man with TPGK or top two bet this turn often enough for you to check-raise again? Does he pick up enough redraws to Broadway, flush, or full house, and is he enough of a typical 3/6 nit, to check back this kind of turn? Giving a free card might be way worse than missing a check-raise in this spot. Even if he has the odds to call if you donk the turn, you lose less than when you give a free card (the "infinite odds" concept in Theory of Poker in case I'm butchering the explanation).

Just my thoughts as a relative novice who is trying to study the game. Very interested in what everyone else thinks.





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I'd call the flop.

As played the attempt at check raising looks good.

River looks good too.

I'd three bet the river

I would call the flop and, as played, would 3bet the river. I expect to see a naked king (including something like KJdd/KQdd) much more than I expect to see a FH.

Why do you guys think the turn check is weak rather than strong?

If he does check back KQdd on an A high turn, I don't think he's going to raise the river with trips.

I think he checks the turn because he wants Ax to bet the river so he can raise his set (or top two).

But let's say all are equally likely and let's put him on 88+ AJo+ (so KQo+ KJs+ plus all 3 sets and AA). On the river that's 6-8 combos you beat depending on how the suits align (remember we hold 1 Q and 1 J), and 16 you lose to. Even if you discount all the strong hands by half, arguably we should just bet/fold.

It's possible he holds AQdd or AJdd and took a free card (3/6 anything is possible really) but it's hard to see those raising the river.

Because he three bet the flop. You don't three bet AK or a set and then Che k it

I just call flop

I like turn

He has KQ so I 3 bet. Hes not gonna 4 bet most likely even if he has a boat given the action. You could fold to a 4 bet if it happened.

I think the way you played it is fine.

I would just call the flop. I don't like to bet the turn unimproved and I don't like the check raise flop, check turn line. His 3 bet on the flop got all the weak hands out of the pot that might have called.

I'm fine with checking the turn with the intention of check raising. Too bad he checked behind.

I'm fine with betting the the river after he checked the turn. After he raises, you only want to call. I would not bet fold the river here unless I had a very strong read on UTG+1. You are almost certainly beat, but worth the call to see what hand he played like this.

I'd never bet-fold the river given the turn check. I was debating 3-betting the river but figured a lot of 3/6 players won't raise the river without the nuts. Villain had K Q for what its worth.

check raising the flop is bad because the PF raising is going to 3bet the the flop a lot, on this particular flop

leaves you heads up vs a made hand with a draw.

I think it's okay when you have a truly big draw (like FD + gutter). It has to work less often because your equity is better. A naked open ender does not qualify; your outs are often in some of the other player's hands and you're often bloating the pot against the best hand and the best draw (like AK/KQ for one guy and J9 for the other).


TL;DR check raising QJ here doesn't seem all that great.

That our outs are in other peoples hands may not be a net negative for Broadway straights (I lean your way on smaller straights) - hands like AQ which spike top pair won't fold an KTx-A turn the way that A9 may fold a K85-9 turn. JTs is disproportionately powerful to T9s because you'll probably see showdowns on an AKQ board.

OESDs on twotoned boards also suffer from losing two outs, but get some of it back when you're perceived as semibluffing flush draws or you can whiff and successfully represent a completed flush.

The downside to check-calling is that you may have to donk turns. The more you guys are right about the turn check being weak (which I still am not convinced of), the less IO you're going to get.

As played the river is a 3bet and I don't think it's close. Villain never checks a set or 2 pair on the turn.

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I strongly disagree with this assertion. Example hand:

I open MP, BTN (TAGfish) 3 bets, blinds come along

AKQ checks through

Turn J check BB bets I call with KJ BTN calls

River J check BB bets I just call BTN raises BB folds I call again, AA good.

Plenty of people do this to be "tricky". I'd agree that it's not common, but "never" is too strong and some players (especially older ones IME) will do zany stuff like this.


This all being said, you're still right that 3 betting river is best. If he got tricky on us and 4 bets, we can probably sigh fold.

board of AKQJ and someone checking with set/two pair is way different than

AKT8

its a clear 3bet

Clearly. But checking the AKQ with AA is along the same lines

In most of the games I play, a flop 3! is a very narrow nutted range - were there reads otherwise at this table? Assuming not, if the flop check-raise is a mistake IMHO it's a small one at worst. If you're at the type of table where people will remember you checkraised "nothing" it can pay dividends later, and if V 3!s you can put him on a pretty narrow range.

I would rather check-raise a draw in position when I have 8+ clean outs, but again, I don't hate the c/r here.

At a 3/6 table I hate the turn check. Shovel your money into the pot while you have the advantage. You're in the BB - to the villain this could look like Ax (a big blind special LOL!) and he might actually raise his 2 pair or set if that's what he has (likely in most of the games I play - don't give him a free card!!!!). He's also unlikely to have you on QJ since you raised the flop.

As played, I play the river the same way you did.