on the verge on quitting for sure so before i do lets see if this hand makes sense from my side and villain..


[converted_hand][hand_history]Poker Stars, $1/$2 Limit Hold'em Cash, 4 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37708128

Preflop: Hero is BTN with A T
CO folds, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, BB folds, Hero caps, SB calls

i usually never cap HU but this guy 3bets way too loose like J8s and all those stuff

Flop: (9 SB) Q 4 5 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls

what else

Turn: (5.5 BB) 9 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls

here i was bet/folding i wanted 1 bet to go in and i think it is better to put it on turn and not the river, unless i hit a pair than i bet the river

River: (7.5 BB) Q (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

thoughts ?

What makes you think it's better for this bet to go in on the turn instead of the river? Usually you do that if you think your opponent is on draws and you want to make sure to extract value. Here, I can't really tell what draws there might be. Maybe JTs that had a backdoor flush draw on the flop that suddenly has an open-ender?

Maybe a better question is to go back to the flop. What is he peeling with here? Do you think he's stubborn enough to call along with unpaired cards at this point? Would he call with the J8s here?

My inclination is to check the turn and call a river bet to get to showdown. I don't think he's folding better hands on the turn and there aren't that many worse hands that he's calling with. And maybe even folding the river if I don't think he's going to take random stabs on the end.

Well that is my problem.
he peel flop very wide and 3bet a lot.
he play like he is in a HU match in bvb or bu vs blinds.

on the flop is peeling very wide.
for the turn it is less clear.
is pretty good with thin value bet on the river so this is why i am less inclined to give him a free card on turn because i feel like he would be right to peel light if i am too passif on turn.

my point is i have a lot of trouble vs guy who spew pf a lot and peel very light flop but still play good postflop with thin value bet and can raise lot f semi bluff on turn with c/r or raise IP.

this is why i decide to cape pf ( which usually i never do) and betting this turn ( which usually i would rather just check turn and call a very bet).

I think i have trouble decide on how to exploit him.

Given this, you should definitely be checking behind on the turn and calling the river. Betting here with a weak hand just makes your life complicated. I think you're overthinking this.

Think about it this way: It's really hard for him to outplay you in single street, out of position, one bet poker. So make him play that game.

Not to mention that you have a bloated pot because of all the other action. Big pot should incline you towards showing down. The pot is something like 4-5 big bets. If you have identical hand ranges, your equity is 2-2.5 big bets. Even if he's value betting perfectly against you, you're never losing more than 1 BB by always seeing the showdown for that price. So you still make straight profit by playing that game.

But you (at least in theory) have an edge preflop and on the flop. So his range is coming into the single street, out of position, one bet poker game with a disadvantage. That's just more money for you because you have better equity.

Your position is an absolute edge over him. Use it to exploit him. Check behind on the turn.

I don't cap preflop here.

Capping pre is bad for reason given; J8s isn't that unreasonable of a 3 bet pre in a resteal spot.

Check turn. Sometimes the river comes a K or J and you can fold, or an A or T and you call.

i see Aaroon great points.

Like i said i never cap pf but this guy 3 bet like 30% of the hands so imo capping pf seem a no brainer imo because is peeling super wide as well on the flop imo.

he does play pretty good postflop ( better than me probably or i am just running bad for couple of weeks, but i rather think is better than me ) so i rather get the profit on pf and make sure to have 1 sb too there.

So i can feel when i check turn a lot with marginal hands i already did my money pf and on the flop.

It just hurt when you loose a ton of money vs those guy that you are too agressive and too loose pf and on the flop because they run good , especially when they are 2 or 3 in a 6 max game.
I wish i could exploit them more quickly but maybe my thought process is wrong here, my edge might not be that high and i should lower my expectation .
Maybe if i become too greedy that is where they make their money ...


ps: no i do not check flops because my 4 bet cap is not wide vs this guy.
maybe 30% of my BU open steal range.

Soliciting a river bluff is better than taking pot with a turn bet and preventing his J8 from hitting???

It is so routine for flop callers to fold turn.

You don't know your opponent has J8. You have to consider your action against his entire range and the various strategies that might be taken with those hands.

You can assume many things about your opponent. Given the description from OP, I don't believe this is necessarily a likely outcome.

I think calling 3 bet pre with button is clearly the better option but I definitely understand why you want to bet the turn. Its not just for this hand but for future hands you want to up your aggression to slow the maniac down some. I think if you bet the turn you should also bet the river so you get paid off on your strong hands. Personally I check the turn and re evaluate on river mostly calling whatever comes and raising an ace.
The best play against a maniac is to use his aggression against him but I understand wanting to re-apply pressure
Occasionally, you can tilt a player like this and they really go off and lose several buy ins. There are actually a decent amount of hands you are still beating A2 A3 67 78 suited just to name a few

I would *never* want to slow the maniac down some. If you do that, then you can't...

If you make your opponent play better, you lose.

Yeah you don't 4 bet a maniac to "slow him down", you 4 bet a maniac because his 3 bet range is wide enough to be able to 4 bet a sufficient amount of hands for value without making your range lolnarrow.

And if you are going to 4 bet light, don't do it from the middle of your range. Like you 4 bet ATs and he folds his K9 on the turn. You got a small victory by denying him his equity. Now you 4 bet with JTs and he folds his K9 on the turn, and you've committed a coup by getting him to commit 2.5 BB and fold the best hand.

This isn't me recommending 4 betting a maniac with JTs, and I'm not even convinced that this SB is even close to one based on MC's read. J8s isn't unheard of to 3 bet and we've no idea what MC's BTN stats (or any stats for that matter) are.

and can raise lot f semi bluff

i think the problem with the turn bet is this.
I know this concept is called value-check. I was explained it by tomacampi during one of his rare twitch streams