Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
Live 20 - Raise Turn w/ Top Pair & Gutterball? Live 20 - Raise Turn w/ Top Pair & Gutterball?

01-22-2011 , 03:48 PM
Villain plays pretty well for the most part and is definitely a winning player at these stakes. He's also a fairly enough guy and when we sit next to each other we sometimes talk shop if there's enough going on at the table to do it discreetly. He might be a little bit passive preflop, as I saw him call JTs from the HJ after 3 or 4 limpers, whereas I'd expect most people here to raise.

Anyways, he's the SB, Hero is the BB, and there is a full kill posted UTG that checks its option. 3 people limp, Villain completes, and Hero closes the action with K 8.

The flop comes 5 7 9 (6 SB)
Some guy in EP bets, there are two callers, Villain calls, Hero calls.

Turn is the K (5.5 BB)
Villain donks, Hero tanks for maybe 30 seconds and raises with intentions of checking back most rivers.
Live 20 - Raise Turn w/ Top Pair & Gutterball? Quote
01-22-2011 , 03:55 PM
Does anyone fold better? Call with worse? What do you put the villain on when he donks?
Live 20 - Raise Turn w/ Top Pair & Gutterball? Quote
01-22-2011 , 04:10 PM
I like it, especially if it gets a hand like 76 or A6 to fold, cleaning up eights as outs a little. But I feel like the villain has a K, and given that he completed the SB in a kill pot it is very likely a better K than ours.
Live 20 - Raise Turn w/ Top Pair & Gutterball? Quote
01-22-2011 , 06:55 PM
Well, there are few kings worse than ours, and if his King is better, we probably aren't chopping. Villain might do this with a combo draw, in fact it actually has more the feel of a draw than not based off my live experience. Seems even decent live players donk draws into strength on a consistent enough basis. Does the EP player check back a ton of overcards on the turn here? Maybe that went into the reason SB donked.

I like the FSDR, I don't like a crying call on the river. Of course, things change with who called your turn raise behind you.

I wouldn't fold better unless I had evidence donk turns from SB meant big strength. If I picked up a combo draw here like JTcc or A8cc, I like a call to bring in those behind. I'm folding every gutshot and most hand weaker than a pair of kings b/c of the flop better behind me.
Live 20 - Raise Turn w/ Top Pair & Gutterball? Quote
01-22-2011 , 07:31 PM
One of the components of a FSDR is that you can fold if you get 3 bet. Is that your plan?
Live 20 - Raise Turn w/ Top Pair & Gutterball? Quote
01-22-2011 , 10:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL
One of the components of a FSDR is that you can fold if you get 3 bet. Is that your plan?
No, because I have a gutshot that I'm drawing to that seems vaguely legitimate with the requisite odds.
However, I was planning on folding the river if he 3-bet the turn and I didn't hit spike a 6.
River K is probably a crying call to a turn 3!?
Live 20 - Raise Turn w/ Top Pair & Gutterball? Quote
01-23-2011 , 11:08 AM
So you're saying that a FSDR isn't the right play.
Live 20 - Raise Turn w/ Top Pair & Gutterball? Quote
01-23-2011 , 12:43 PM
Is it ever?
Live 20 - Raise Turn w/ Top Pair & Gutterball? Quote
01-23-2011 , 02:58 PM
Not in my experience.
Live 20 - Raise Turn w/ Top Pair & Gutterball? Quote
01-23-2011 , 03:46 PM
So you're advocating a turn call. What's the plan for another bet by Villain on a blank river if one or two people call the turn behind me?
Live 20 - Raise Turn w/ Top Pair & Gutterball? Quote
01-23-2011 , 03:58 PM
you're not FSDR, as you'll bet if you improve. You're cleaning up outs here by raising. I'm not sure whether raising > calling though, because it looks like at best, you'll have 7 + counterfeit outs (if he has something like K7), whereas you might be drawing very thinly.
Live 20 - Raise Turn w/ Top Pair & Gutterball? Quote
01-23-2011 , 04:15 PM
Just lay out why we're raising. Let's assume our hero didn't time bank. I don't like giving off a timing tell right before a fancy play; it seems polarizing. Put the villains on ranges, and explain why the raise is better than a call or a fold.
Live 20 - Raise Turn w/ Top Pair & Gutterball? Quote

      
m