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Old 03-17-2015, 07:23 AM   #101
punter11235
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

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The first where you sum which kind of minimum components are required to get decent performance out of running 1 copy of PioSolver pro.
i7 quad will give you performance similar to the benchmarks mentioned on the site.
i7 hexa core will be ~30% better (for now, probably in the future it will be close to 50%) but those are expensive.

Quote:
The second where you sum which kind of components are required to get close to everything out of running 2 copies of PioSolver pro on 1 system.
It doesn't make much sense to run 2 of them at the same time. It's easier to run one for shorter time (it will use all the cores anyway) and schedule the tasks.

Quote:
I do not really know that much about those things but I guess processor, RAM, HD, ... surely have to be considered in this?
The most important things are the CPU (i7 or Xeon are good). The second most important thing is modern fast RAM.
We will be making progress in optimization department once the set of necessary features is implemented but those two components will stay: fast CPU (from Intel) and possibly the best RAM you can get. 16GB is a lot, I use the solver with 8 without any problems although once we introduce trees with multiple betsizes 16GB may be quite useful.

As to i7 vs Xeon, i7 is better choice unless you plan on putting together serious work station with two CPUs (you can use Xeons for that but not i7s). Those are very expensive though.

Fast HD is important for now if you plan to load/save trees a lot but it's possible to make the saves 100x smaller. I don't know at which we are going to implement it though. I would prefer focusing on some optimization work first.

Last edited by punter11235; 03-17-2015 at 07:28 AM.
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Old 03-17-2015, 07:49 AM   #102
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Talking about RAM ... I suppose that the full tree is held in RAM (probably even after being saved to hard disk).

When I then close PioSolver, is there some kind of garbage collection, or is RAM still blocked by the tree ?
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Old 03-17-2015, 09:12 AM   #103
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

got a question about bet sizing. When PIOSolver calculates the EV of a hand+action on the flop it got to take into account all possible turn/river cards and betting there after right?

So when I key in two ranges and solve for a flop using 66p 70p 75p. What bet sizing is PIO using for the turn bet assuming the flop goes bet/call?

I ask this because I realize that PIO is taking a flop bet size of 66p a reraise size of 70p and a rereraise size of 75p but that isnt what I want to achieve. What I wanted is to get a cbet size of 66p a turn barrel of 70p and a river barrel of 75p and make the stack size cap at 100bb for a common single raise pot facing 3barrel scenario.
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Old 03-17-2015, 09:36 AM   #104
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

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When I then close PioSolver, is there some kind of garbage collection, or is RAM still blocked by the tree ?
Yes, when PioSOLVER is closed the operating system (Windows) actually frees all resources it took. You can always check if everything went well by opening task manager and seeing if there isn't a solver taking 4GB of RAM or something

Quote:
So when I key in two ranges and solve for a flop using 66p 70p 75p. What bet sizing is PIO using for the turn bet assuming the flop goes bet/call?
It's using 70p.
One decent way to describe 100bb spot in normal 2bb pot with 5/10 blinds is this:
66p 70p 75p 975

It means the first bet will be 66%, 2nd one 70%, 3rd one 75% and the final one (so for example river check-raise) will be 975 total (cumulative).
You can also use "Choose pot and bets" for that.
I hope this is clear but if it's not let me know. I will make a sample scenario for you.
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Old 03-17-2015, 05:52 PM   #105
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Fwiw, I also have 8GB of RAM and get an Error Message using wider ranges + weighting :/
Closing background applications sometimes helps though, but I will definitely think about getting some extra memory.

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Old 03-17-2015, 06:00 PM   #106
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

^^

Yeah, same here, I also have 8 GB, and same error message sometimes, when I had been doing stuff already on my computer for a while that day.

Right after rebooting, I never have that problem, with whatever range and situation I choose ... guess I just have to swallow that as long as I still have my current PC, for the sake of gaining knowledge
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Old 03-17-2015, 06:14 PM   #107
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

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Fwiw, I also have 8GB of RAM and get an Error Message using wider ranges + weighting :/
One good news is that it doesn't matter what the ranges are. You can add every hand with 0.01 weight if you want. It will still take the same amount of RAM (~4.1GB in case of that particular tree).
If it's typical postflop spot with BB defending vs a steal it's usually safe to disable "start the tree with OOP decision". It's not true for SBvsBB and 3bet pots though.

Quote:
Right after rebooting, I never have that problem, with whatever range and situation I choose ... guess I just have to swallow that as long as I still have my current PC
While it's true that I don't have much junk running on my system (the biggest offenders are web browsers with a lot of tabs but some "anti-virus" software is on the list as well) and it could be the reason I never experienced this problem, 8GB is still a lot of memory and it should be more than enough for comfortable usage.
You can use the solver to show you what your operating system is reporting btw:
1)open the solver from command line (or just double click PioSOLVER-version.exe
2)type:
show_memory

It will show you how much physical memory is there and how much is currently available.
What the solver does is estimating how big the resulting tree is going to be, adds 150MB and it only builds it the if the OS reports that there is enough memory for that.

Last edited by punter11235; 03-17-2015 at 06:23 PM.
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Old 03-18-2015, 01:26 AM   #108
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

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It's using 70p.
One decent way to describe 100bb spot in normal 2bb pot with 5/10 blinds is this:
66p 70p 75p 975

It means the first bet will be 66%, 2nd one 70%, 3rd one 75% and the final one (so for example river check-raise) will be 975 total (cumulative).
You can also use "Choose pot and bets" for that.
I hope this is clear but if it's not let me know. I will make a sample scenario for you.
I think I get it. Meaning the first bet regardless of where it got in is always 66p and the 2nd is always 70p and so on. So if the flop checks through, whoever bets the turn will bet it for 66p now cause it is the first bet right?

thx
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Old 03-18-2015, 09:13 AM   #109
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

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I think I get it. Meaning the first bet regardless of where it got in is always 66p and the 2nd is always 70p and so on. So if the flop checks through, whoever bets the turn will bet it for 66p now cause it is the first bet right?
Yes, that's how it works.
When implementing that I wanted something simple/automatic but still being able to produce realistic trees.
It's now clear that this interface is a bit limited (especially when it comes to raise sizes). Making it more flexible tops our to-do and will be first major improvement of the solver itself.
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Old 03-18-2015, 11:27 AM   #110
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Hi,
thanks for the hardware suggestions.

The inclusion of multiple bet-sizes should imo not be that difficult in a reduced form.
An easy pop-up with some checkboxes and questions can assist in a quick set-up.
Your tree-builder adds a subroutine that verifies whether the questions in the pop-up pass.
If so, extra nodes are added as usual but with alternative betting-sizes.

ie 500 chips eff --- 10/20 blinds --- MR pre
Bet sizes = 0,5p , then t100 , then shove
results in
Starting Pot = 80
Bet sizes = 40 140 460

addition alternative bet-size 0:
(allowing t30 cbet size for SB)
Starting from which betting-sequence do we use alternative betting-sizes? --- main
For which bet an alternative? --- first
Which position is allowed to use the alternative? --- SB
Which street is allowed to use the alternative? --- flop
Which alternative betting-sizes? --- 30 130 460

addition alternative bet-size 1:
(inclusion turn overbetting + river barrel when SB does not cbets)
Starting from which betting-sequence do we use alternative betting-sizes? --- main
For which bet an alternative? --- first bet
Which position is allowed to use the alternative? --- BB
Which street is allowed to use the alternative? --- turn
Which alternative betting-sizes? --- 2e460

addition alternative bet-size 2:
(allowing halve pot 3rd barrel + shove as alternative line for 3rd bet shove for all)
Starting from which betting-sequence do we use alternative betting-sizes? --- main alternative bet-size 0
For which bet an alternative? --- third
Which position is allowed to use the alternative? --- SB BB
Which street is allowed to use the alternative? --- flop turn river
Which alternative betting-sizes? --- 0,5p 460

addition alternative bet-size 3:
(allowing 1/5 block betting of the BB after cbet + barrel)
Starting from which betting-sequence do we use alternative betting-sizes? --- main alternative bet-size 0
For which bet an alternative? --- third
Which position is allowed to use the alternative? --- BB
Which street is allowed to use the alternative? --- river
Which alternative betting-sizes? --- 0,2p 460
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Old 03-18-2015, 12:00 PM   #111
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

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The inclusion of multiple bet-sizes should imo not be that difficult in a reduced form.
An easy pop-up with some checkboxes and questions can assist in a quick set-up.
Your tree-builder adds a subroutine that verifies whether the questions in the pop-up pass.
If so, extra nodes are added as usual but with alternative betting-sizes.
That sounds very nice (certainly better than walking the whole tree and adjusting every branch manually). We need to make sure it makes common use cases easy but it looks like we may actually use that in the form you described.

Thanks for your suggestion!
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Old 03-18-2015, 12:05 PM   #112
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

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Originally Posted by punter11235 View Post
That sounds very nice (certainly better than walking the whole tree and adjusting every branch manually). We need to make sure it makes common use cases easy but it looks like we may actually use that in the form you described.

Thanks for your suggestion!
Good to hear.
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Old 03-18-2015, 12:09 PM   #113
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Hey, we just discovered that the EV of betting / checking differ just marginally (we could not find any spot, where the EV difference (in the Zoombox) is bigger than 1-2bb).
Is that because both players are playing an "optimal" strategy ?
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Old 03-18-2015, 12:38 PM   #114
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Also, an extra area (added to left of current view) where combo's are pushed into categories set, 2pair, pair, ... FD, ... aka Flopzilla,CoffeeCalcs,CREV,...
With frequencies for each color (fold / check / ...) would be nice.

If somehow a button would be added that when you click a category @left (ie top-pair); so in the current stove grid only those combo's (that are top-pair) are displayed with all current information + you can still click in the stove grid to view specific combo's at bottom right would be the awesome.
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Old 03-18-2015, 12:41 PM   #115
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

€/: Sry 4 double posting, wasn´t allowed to edit my post :/



86s has a positive Checking EV in that Spot, although it should have 0% Equity against Villains range (it is completely dominated)
How is that possible ?
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Old 03-18-2015, 01:37 PM   #116
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

You didn't displayed EV but strategy. 8s6s should be checked 100% here.
I think when a hand is played with mixed strategy in equilibrium EV of both actions should be the same. When it differs that means strategy hasn't fully converged.
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Old 03-18-2015, 02:08 PM   #117
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

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Is that because both players are playing an "optimal" strategy ?
Qlka's post answeres it well.
By definition in equilibrium play if there is any mixing the actions have the same EV. How much they differ is a good measure of solution's (and the solver's) imperfections.

Quote:
86s has a positive Checking EV in that Spot, although it should have 0% Equity against Villains range (it is completely dominated)
How is that possible ?
Maybe it's not as dominated as you think and it splits (or even wins, like vs 53) some pots.
You may investigate it by choosing IP's/OOP's ranges, copy pasting them (right click - copy and paste to Tools->Select Range).
If you need help with that feel free to contact us or post some screens from "Strategy+EV" view.


Quote:
Also, an extra area (added to left of current view) where combo's are pushed into categories set, 2pair, pair, ... FD, ... aka Flopzilla,CoffeeCalcs,CREV,...
With frequencies for each color (fold / check / ...) would be nice.

If somehow a button would be added that when you click a category @left (ie top-pair); so in the current stove grid only those combo's (that are top-pair) are displayed with all current information + you can still click in the stove grid to view specific combo's at bottom right would be the awesome.
This is an awesome feature which unfortunately needs to wait for now
You may try nudging the authors of those tools to make importing ranges possible. We don't really care what the format is as it's not rocket science to write a converter. The tool just needs to accept ranges with arbitrary (often with many decimal places) weights in some format which is possible to copy-paste or import in some other way.

Last edited by punter11235; 03-18-2015 at 02:16 PM.
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Old 03-19-2015, 06:24 PM   #118
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Will we have the ability to choose multiple raise sizes as well in the future? I'm trying to study short stack situations and it would be nice to have an all-in raise size as well as a min-raise or something, although I'm not sure how much of a difference this makes.
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Old 03-19-2015, 09:57 PM   #119
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

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Will we have the ability to choose multiple raise sizes as well in the future? I'm trying to study short stack situations and it would be nice to have an all-in raise size as well as a min-raise or something, although I'm not sure how much of a difference this makes.
I am not sure about "multiple" but adding things like all-in everywhere or 2 betsizes in some/most spots will be available in next update. Fully customizable trees (any amount of sizes etc.) will probably be only available in the edge version but those will require insanse hardware (at least for a while) anyway.

I have one example of memory requirements:
-CAP tree without a donkbet takes ~1.3GB
-CAP tree withotu a donkbet with all-in everywhere added takes ~2.1GB

It seems it will be feasible to solve CAP + all-in everywhere and probably stuff like normal 100bb trees with 2 river sizes.
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Old 03-19-2015, 10:49 PM   #120
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

So, like a post flop equilibrium solver, you get the frequencies right. But does PioSolver give you the hands and the ranges they fit into? or does it just give EV of individual hands, would I have to construct the ranges myself?
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Old 03-20-2015, 04:19 AM   #121
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

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Originally Posted by punter11235 View Post
Fully customizable trees (any amount of sizes etc.) will probably be only available in the edge version but those will require insanse hardware (at least for a while) anyway.
Hmm, wow, that's interesting ... will you, at some point in the future, have an updated description on the website of what features are e.g. in the Edge version ? For instance, if you do implement this feature into Edge, it might be enough of a reason for some (including me, possibly) to upgrade to Edge, but will we know about it ?
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Old 03-20-2015, 04:22 AM   #122
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Hey punter,

Was wondering is there a way to copy a range from the tree after solving the flop? Say after I run a scenario to a flop and get the flop betting and calling ranges. Now I want to see the different types of plays on the turn. You can see why I need to be able to copy/paste the ranges given to me by PIOsolver on the flop.
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Old 03-20-2015, 05:58 AM   #123
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

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So, like a post flop equilibrium solver, you get the frequencies right. But does PioSolver give you the hands and the ranges they fit into? or does it just give EV of individual hands, would I have to construct the ranges myself?
It gives you access to all the ranges in every node as well as ranges for every action (see bottom of this post)

Quote:
Hmm, wow, that's interesting ... will you, at some point in the future, have an updated description on the website of what features are e.g. in the Edge version ? For instance, if you do implement this feature into Edge, it might be enough of a reason for some (including me, possibly) to upgrade to Edge, but will we know about it ?
We will be adding and updating features and updating the descriptions accordingly.
Don't worry though, as our idea is to add features in a way that you can do anything practical with pro version (and most of the things with basic) while edge version will get some some functionality for very heavy analysis requiring big hardware etc. (also some things may make it there earlier, especially those which would require assistance from us to run)
2 bet sizes on the river, all-in everywhere etc. will for sure make it to pro.


Quote:
Was wondering is there a way to copy a range from the tree after solving the flop? Say after I run a scenario to a flop and get the flop betting and calling ranges. Now I want to see the different types of plays on the turn. You can see why I need to be able to copy/paste the ranges given to me by PIOsolver on the flop.
Well, I don't exactly understand what you want to do with those on the turn (on the turn you can see the ranges as well) but maybe this:
http://piosolver.com/blogs/news/1776...e-in-pioviewer

and copy-pasting like this:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/07...76790801032838

solves your problem.
You can copy-paste all the data available which includes:

-range at given point
-range for every action
-overall EV at given point
-EV for every action
-strategy for every hand for every action

What is currently copy-pastable on 13x13 grid depends on what is displayed. So if you want ranges and ranges for action just click "IP range" (or "OOP range") and then right click and copy.

If you want to paste them, you can use the range selector: Tools -> Select Range:

Like this: GIF

You can then save them or modify them as well (for example if you want to see how many value hands are there you can eliminate all non value ones although as it is now it's a bit cumbersome).

Another option is to use "open in new window" option which will open your current node (say decision to call flop c-bet). You can have as many of those open as you want (so you can have one from the flop open and browse the turn).

Last edited by punter11235; 03-20-2015 at 06:04 AM.
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Old 03-20-2015, 06:44 AM   #124
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

cool, got it. I need the range to continue the scenario from the flop after a cbet/call and a turn comes. That way I can see what is continuing on difference turns and what is not.
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Old 03-20-2015, 07:45 AM   #125
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Quote:
cool, got it. I need the range to continue the scenario from the flop after a cbet/call and a turn comes. That way I can see what is continuing on difference turns and what is not.
Well, in the newest version of the viewer (available in your download folder) you can combine range and strategy views like this:



In general I believe that if you want to answer a question "what is continuing on the turn" all the information is available once you are at that point (say calling 2nd barrel like on the picture).
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