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Old 12-08-2009, 07:08 PM   #1
rj999
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ICM Cruncher

This is the support thread for ICM Cruncher, which is an ICM Calculator for iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad.

Last edited by Bobo Fett; 06-22-2011 at 06:01 AM.
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Old 12-08-2009, 07:53 PM   #2
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Re: New Software: iPhone app "ICM Cruncher" - ICM calculator and decision analyzer

Forgot to mention - I have this app on a $1.99 introductory price right now. The App Store economy has played havoc with app prices (forced prices to go lower), so I'm really not sure what price I'll settle on or if it will stay $1.99.
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Old 12-10-2009, 10:13 PM   #3
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Re: New Software: iPhone app "ICM Cruncher" - ICM calculator and decision analyzer

Looks very nice, I'll be buying this as soon as FT ship me my ipod.
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Old 12-10-2009, 10:26 PM   #4
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Re: New Software: iPhone app "ICM Cruncher" - ICM calculator and decision analyzer

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Looks very nice, I'll be buying this as soon as FT ship me my ipod.
Thanks, great.

Already got some email feedback and I've submitted a small V.1.1 update:

The CallAnAllInOrFold analyzer - currently asks you to exclude the all-in raise amount for the Villain (so in the 2nd pic above ChipsPutIntoPot is 400 and 400 for P4 and P5) but it's more intuitive to enter the full stack amount for the Villain because he's all-in so in V.1.1 you'll enter 6000 and 400.

This is just a change in the input convention - the ICM calc and analysis is correct in V.1.0 and won't change.

Now all I need is for Apple to handle my app updates correctly. Those of you who have PokerCruncher will notice that V.2.92 went live today but when you download it you get V.2.91. The problem is on their end I believe, first time, am in communication with them.
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Old 12-20-2009, 04:47 PM   #5
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Re: New Software: iPhone app "ICM Cruncher" - ICM calculator and decision analyzer

I purchased the ICM app, as well as the hand equity app, and I really enjoy them both. Well done.

I have one recommendation re: the way you market the ICM app in the app store. You write: "Poker Stars has announced that they do not allow ICM calculators to be run during live tournaments."

I appreciate that the statement sounds strong and emphasizes the power of the app, but I recommend you remove that sentence or change the language.

I think a reasonable person could think you're suggesting that a use purpose of the app is to circumvent Star's rules. I'm sure that isn't your intention. I would just be careful and avoid any suggestion that your app can... or should... be used unethically. It shouldn't be, and I think you should be careful in your marketing to really take the high ground.

Further, people who download this app know what ICM is... this is a training tool for thinking about spots when you're not at a computer.

Anyway, this is somewhat nit picking, and I'm sure you weren't intending to suggest that people use the app for wrong. I just think it's always sound business to avoid even the appearance of ethical issues.
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Old 12-20-2009, 07:51 PM   #6
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Re: New Software: iPhone app "ICM Cruncher" - ICM calculator and decision analyzer

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Originally Posted by Willyoman View Post
I purchased the ICM app, as well as the hand equity app, and I really enjoy them both. Well done.

I have one recommendation re: the way you market the ICM app in the app store. You write: "Poker Stars has announced that they do not allow ICM calculators to be run during live tournaments."

I appreciate that the statement sounds strong and emphasizes the power of the app, but I recommend you remove that sentence or change the language.

I think a reasonable person could think you're suggesting that a use purpose of the app is to circumvent Star's rules. I'm sure that isn't your intention. I would just be careful and avoid any suggestion that your app can... or should... be used unethically. It shouldn't be, and I think you should be careful in your marketing to really take the high ground.

Further, people who download this app know what ICM is... this is a training tool for thinking about spots when you're not at a computer.

Anyway, this is somewhat nit picking, and I'm sure you weren't intending to suggest that people use the app for wrong. I just think it's always sound business to avoid even the appearance of ethical issues.
Thanks for feedback!, glad you like the apps.

Yes I wasn't trying to suggest that people should use this app illegally anywhere. I was just trying to give an example of how important knowledge of ICM is and the edge that it can give.

Currently this paragraph reads:

=====
How valuable is knowledge of ICM (Independent Chip Model) to a tournament player? ...

Poker Stars has announced that they do not allow ICM calculators to be run during live tournaments.
=====

At first right after this I had a sentence "We should of course comply ..." but deleted it to shorten the text and because I thought that not doing anything illegal goes without saying. But I see your point that some readers may interpret it differently. So I've added this sentence at the end:

=====
We should of course comply and not do anything illegal, but we suggest you consider getting ICM Cruncher to help you master ICM.
=====

I want to go with this addition rather than with your other suggestion of completely deleting the Poker Stars reference, to show people who don't know ICM yet the edge it can give. Thanks for writing; do let me know if there are any more issues.
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Old 12-20-2009, 08:38 PM   #7
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Re: New Software: iPhone app "ICM Cruncher" - ICM calculator and decision analyzer

Cool man.

FWIW, instead of writing "illegal," I would write "anything that gives you an unfair advantage" or something like that. The word "illegal" might freak out the iPhone app approval guys!

I'd also change the word "but" to "and" in the middle. It's a subtle change, but it makes you sound more genuine. Or maybe just break it into two sentences.
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Old 12-20-2009, 09:48 PM   #8
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Re: New Software: iPhone app "ICM Cruncher" - ICM calculator and decision analyzer

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Originally Posted by Willyoman View Post
Cool man.

FWIW, instead of writing "illegal," I would write "anything that gives you an unfair advantage" or something like that. The word "illegal" might freak out the iPhone app approval guys!

I'd also change the word "but" to "and" in the middle. It's a subtle change, but it makes you sound more genuine. Or maybe just break it into two sentences.
Both done!:

=====
How valuable is knowledge of ICM (Independent Chip Model) to a tournament player? ... Poker Stars has announced that they do not allow ICM calculators to be run during live tournaments. We should of course comply and not do anything that gives us an unfair advantage. ICM Cruncher can help you master ICM.
=====

Good cleanups, and I'm open to endless more. I'm a software dev. not a marketing or legal person (and can't afford one) so help appreciated, thanks.
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Old 12-20-2009, 11:16 PM   #9
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Re: New Software: iPhone app "ICM Cruncher" - ICM calculator and decision analyzer

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Originally Posted by rj999 View Post
Both done!:

=====
How valuable is knowledge of ICM (Independent Chip Model) to a tournament player? ... Poker Stars has announced that they do not allow ICM calculators to be run during live tournaments. We should of course comply and not do anything that gives us an unfair advantage. ICM Cruncher can help you master ICM.
=====

Good cleanups, and I'm open to endless more. I'm a software dev. not a marketing or legal person (and can't afford one) so help appreciated, thanks.
BTW, I"m not a marketing guy either, so I'm just talking. Feel free to totally ignore what I'm suggesting. Just sharing some ideas.

Here's another cut to consider:

How valuable is ICM (Independent Chip Model) to tournament players? For starters, it's so powerful that PokerStars does not even allow ICM calculators during live tournaments. We ask that our users comply with all rules and do not use our program to gain an unfair advantage during live play. We hope ICM Cruncher will help you master ICM and give you the tools to compete more profitably in tournaments of all levels and buy-ins.
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Old 12-21-2009, 02:16 AM   #10
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Re: New Software: iPhone app "ICM Cruncher" - ICM calculator and decision analyzer

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Originally Posted by Willyoman View Post
BTW, I"m not a marketing guy either, so I'm just talking. Feel free to totally ignore what I'm suggesting. Just sharing some ideas.

Here's another cut to consider:

How valuable is ICM (Independent Chip Model) to tournament players? For starters, it's so powerful that PokerStars does not even allow ICM calculators during live tournaments. We ask that our users comply with all rules and do not use our program to gain an unfair advantage during live play. We hope ICM Cruncher will help you master ICM and give you the tools to compete more profitably in tournaments of all levels and buy-ins.
This sounds good. The first version that said crush any tournament was too aggressive I thought but I like "compete more profitably" or "increase your EV" etc. I'll submit the new text in a day. Thank you sir!
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Old 01-06-2010, 01:33 AM   #11
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Re: New Software: iPhone app "ICM Cruncher" - ICM calculator and decision analyzer

Do you have a version that could run on Symbian or Android?
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Old 01-06-2010, 09:26 AM   #12
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Re: New Software: iPhone app "ICM Cruncher" - ICM calculator and decision analyzer

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Do you have a version that could run on Symbian or Android?
Sorry, no, and no plans yet to port to another phone. I.m.o. no other phone/OS matches the iPhone platform's growth and bang for the buck in terms of target device units in one implementation/port of an app. This could change; will reconsider periodically.
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Old 04-26-2010, 05:25 AM   #13
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Re: New Software: iPhone app "ICM Cruncher" - ICM calculator and decision analyzer

ive bought all three of your poker apps, thanks for making them, i think they're a great value.

I would love to see these apps in Omaha form, with it being a newer and less understood game than holdem i think they would do well particularly with the twoplustwo crowd that is eager to improve, and already know holdem well enough.
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Old 04-26-2010, 08:43 PM   #14
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Re: New Software: iPhone app "ICM Cruncher" - ICM calculator and decision analyzer

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ive bought all three of your poker apps, thanks for making them, i think they're a great value.

I would love to see these apps in Omaha form, with it being a newer and less understood game than holdem i think they would do well particularly with the twoplustwo crowd that is eager to improve, and already know holdem well enough.
Thanks for getting the apps and for the good words on them! Omaha has been suggested by many people. I haven't started this because the market for Omaha is of course smaller than for Hold'em (but I realize that Omaha versions may be able to command higher prices).

Also I think general hand ranges for Omaha is a tough problem. The calculator can have builtin ranges like the ProPokerTools site's app has, but in general for Omaha specifying a range for 4 hole cards would be hard. Maybe can use two 13x13 grid ranges for each player, one range for two of the cards and one range for the other two, but this is a simplification.

I think Omaha is a good suggestion; just wanted to explain why I haven't started this (specialized, and harder). Thanks.
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Old 04-27-2010, 03:54 AM   #15
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Re: New Software: iPhone app "ICM Cruncher" - ICM calculator and decision analyzer

O.K. Got Cruncher, and ICM Calculator.

But, I probably could have waited on ICM until I became better at Cruncher, because I need to understand hand ranges very well before I can estimate how often opponents will fold, etc.

I certainly understand how ICM works, and the purpose of it all - but it's like anything else, garbage in = garbage out - I have to learn how to do the estimates.

Meanwhile both apps are fun to learn, especially PkrCruncher Hand Ranges. I've been going over a lot of hand history to key moments and using the software to check my decisions, and at least in 'hind sight' I can check out whether I was right or wrong.

Thanks, I'll keep following the threads. It would be nice if you could produce some ITune vids for your software by the way, just to get people use to how things work more quickly.

Look forward to seeing how you do with your various products, I can already say that they are worth the money.

k9
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Old 04-28-2010, 10:42 PM   #16
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Re: New Software: iPhone app "ICM Cruncher" - ICM calculator and decision analyzer

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O.K. Got Cruncher, and ICM Calculator.

But, I probably could have waited on ICM until I became better at Cruncher, because I need to understand hand ranges very well before I can estimate how often opponents will fold, etc.

I certainly understand how ICM works, and the purpose of it all - but it's like anything else, garbage in = garbage out - I have to learn how to do the estimates.

Meanwhile both apps are fun to learn, especially PkrCruncher Hand Ranges. I've been going over a lot of hand history to key moments and using the software to check my decisions, and at least in 'hind sight' I can check out whether I was right or wrong.

Thanks, I'll keep following the threads. It would be nice if you could produce some ITune vids for your software by the way, just to get people use to how things work more quickly.

Look forward to seeing how you do with your various products, I can already say that they are worth the money.

k9
Thanks for getting the apps and for the encouraging words! I completely see why you'd want to start with PokerCruncher rather than ICM Cruncher; it's actually the lower-level app even though it's way more complicated in terms of features.

PokerCruncher deals with just equity calculation whereas ICM Cruncher deals with call/fold/push decisions where there can be a lot of gray area, as you say if garbage in then garbage out. So if you can't put your opponent on the right range of hands or if you don't estimate how often he'll call your push well enough, then forget it, even if you nail the your-KJo vs his-top-10%-of-hands equity estimate, you'll still wind up with a bad decision result because your high level assumptions weren't good. So I agree, decisions based on ICM are way harder than just knowing hand vs hand vs range odds.

Suggestion on videos noted, thanks for writing.
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Old 04-30-2010, 07:06 PM   #17
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Re: New Software: iPhone app "ICM Cruncher" - ICM calculator and decision analyzer

This will be massive +ev if u port those apps to Android phones!
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Old 05-01-2010, 07:22 AM   #18
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Re: New Software: iPhone app "ICM Cruncher" - ICM calculator and decision analyzer

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Originally Posted by rj999 View Post
Thanks for getting the apps and for the good words on them! Omaha has been suggested by many people. I haven't started this because the market for Omaha is of course smaller than for Hold'em (but I realize that Omaha versions may be able to command higher prices).

Also I think general hand ranges for Omaha is a tough problem. The calculator can have builtin ranges like the ProPokerTools site's app has, but in general for Omaha specifying a range for 4 hole cards would be hard. Maybe can use two 13x13 grid ranges for each player, one range for two of the cards and one range for the other two, but this is a simplification.

I think Omaha is a good suggestion; just wanted to explain why I haven't started this (specialized, and harder). Thanks.
fwiw, i would pay $15 for a good Omaha stove but i totally get what you're saying with inputting ranges. maybe for the ipad?
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Old 05-01-2010, 08:08 AM   #19
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Re: New Software: iPhone app "ICM Cruncher" - ICM calculator and decision analyzer

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fwiw, i would pay $15 for a good Omaha stove but i totally get what you're saying with inputting ranges. maybe for the ipad?
Maybe!, but still a tough app. Next up is an iPad version of PokerCruncher - a UI redesign that puts the big screen to good use. Easily doable with no complications, ETA 1..2 months.
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Old 05-31-2011, 12:43 PM   #20
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Re: New Software: iPhone app "ICM Cruncher" - ICM calculator and decision analyzer

unhh..i want to use that on my mac..is that possible?
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Old 05-31-2011, 04:04 PM   #21
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Re: New Software: iPhone app "ICM Cruncher" - ICM calculator and decision analyzer

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unhh..i want to use that on my mac..is that possible?
Not right now and I don't have plans for this. Lot of other things to do like an Android version of PokerCruncher (which does have a Mac version).
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Old 05-31-2011, 09:19 PM   #22
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Re: New Software: iPhone app "ICM Cruncher" - ICM calculator and decision analyzer

i bought poker cruncher but i see no use in it since i cant calculate icm together
am I doing something wrong?
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Old 05-31-2011, 10:33 PM   #23
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Re: New Software: iPhone app "ICM Cruncher" - ICM calculator and decision analyzer

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i bought poker cruncher but i see no use in it since i cant calculate icm together
am I doing something wrong?
No. PokerCruncher is an equity calculator; it doesn't analyze push/call/fold decisions or deal with ICM. ICM Cruncher is a separate app that's an ICM calculator and is also an ICM push/call/fold decision analyzer. ICM Cruncher takes equity estimates as input; you can use PokerCruncher to calculate these equities and input them in ICM Cruncher.

So for tournament players, imo PokerCruncher and ICM Cruncher are an effective pair of apps.
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Old 08-30-2011, 11:35 PM   #24
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Re: ICM Cruncher

A feature request would be to add Kill Everyone's (all-in) Bubble Factor as a calculated output. Would make this a much more valuable app.

Love it as it currently stands, but could see extra value.
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Old 09-01-2011, 02:31 AM   #25
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Re: ICM Cruncher

Re. bubble factor - good suggestion, I plan on adding it, but may be a while due to some other work starting. Actually I think this should be easy to add because the app already has the building blocks to calculate BF because the push/call/fold decision analyzers already calculate your ICM equities for cases like you fold to villain's all-in, you call and win, you call and lose, etc.

Are you the "The Meal" that recently wrote an App Store review for PokerCruncher-iPad? Many thanks for the review, helps the app a lot. Re. your feature request in the review - a button to invert a range, e.g. to enter bottom 85% - I'll put it on the list. But here's a poor man's way of doing it now - first add 100% of hands, then select top 15% using the slider, then tap "Remove". But yeah an invert button or menu command would be much slicker.

Then to continue your example, where a player has folded a bottom 85% hand, select (tap) the player and do Menu --> FoldSelectedPlayer. Thanks for getting the apps and for good feedback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Meal View Post
A feature request would be to add Kill Everyone's (all-in) Bubble Factor as a calculated output. Would make this a much more valuable app.

Love it as it currently stands, but could see extra value.

Last edited by rj999; 09-01-2011 at 02:36 AM.
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