Now that there is free turn solutions competition, are you planning to chnage your price model?

Hi, I believe I answered this in the post directly above yours I quoted my previous reply below. If you have additional questions that are not answered in the quote just let me know, I'm happy to elaborate further if you feel that the prior post did not fully answer your question.

Hey man,

Love the trial software: very easy to use and intuitive.

Couple questions.

- any chance of a stand alone phone app. In reading the above I realize the processing power is way beyond what is possible, but something that just shows the grid? e.g. you put the range + board and then just get the grid output so we can see what part of the tree a certain portion of our range belongs and how GTORB suggests playing it. Or you could have pr-solved trees to browse similar to the strat packs..

- It would be great to villains range more accessible.

- any chance of a combo deal on the subscription + Strat packs? BTW are the strat packs self contained, or do they require a license key?

- Any chance of having a max exploit function? I do this in CR EV, but love the visual layout of GTORB..... may not be possible.

- What are the plans for MTTs? I mainly play MTTs. The concepts are the same essentially right? If we are able to arrive at a range then using Tchips is similar $chips... not exactly, but still workable I guess. Are there any plans for MTT content?

thx

Glad you're enjoying the trial, will go through your questions 1 by 1.

A stand alone phone app probably isn't possible, but I think the site works okay (could definitely be more mobile friendly but it should work) on a mobile browser so you can definitely just try using the site on your phone. I know people definitely watch the videos for the strategy packs that way and browse some of the solutions.

Regarding the villains range being more accessible, do you mean when you are browsing the solution tree? I'm working on a UI rework that should be out in 2-3 weeks that I think will really simplify the range presentation for players at both nodes.

The strat packs are fully self contained and do not require a license to view. I don't have any immediate plans for a combo purchase option, but its something I might consider in the future.

The MTT concepts are definitely reasonably similar and applicable. I am actually talking with a few pros about making an MTT focused strategy pack and/or adding MTT flop solutions to the flop solution library which will come out in about a week. I don't have the expertise in MTTs myself so it will take a little time but I think good coverage of MTT scenarios, how to apply GTORB solutions to MTTs, key differences between MTTs and other game types, etc are all topics I want to have good material for in the future.

Cheers!

Alex

Nice one! Probably worth making it a bit more explicit in the dojo as a number of people I've spoken to were sure the strategy packs required a licence. Perhaps some flashing letters 'stand alone content '.

Re: combo pack. Do it! :-)

Good advice, I added a bold notice to the page that the content is stand alone and that no license is required.

Thanks!

I am just curious if price will go down compared to current one for turn license because having access to flop library with 10 personal solutions seems worse to me than having an ability to solve flops on your own.

I see, the only short term pricing change we plan is to remove the activation fee / monthly option and replace it with just a 6 month or 1 year license.

I think access to the library which allows you do see tons of high / mid stakes players choices of preflop ranges, betting tree customizations and bet sizing choices etc in a searchable format is complementary to running your own calculations rather than it being an either/or option. I know from my experience setting up scenarios for the video packs, that really think hard about the best ranges to use, exactly which bet sizing options you want to include, etc is a lot of work and I have already been leveraging ideas that I find from other users scenarios in the library when running my own calcs.

Its very helpful to study what others have done and this can help you to get a good feel of how important including turn overbets in your game tree is, which c-bet sizes tend to increase which players EV on which boards, etc to further your own analysis, even if you plan to run hundreds of your own flop simulations.

My hope is that the ability to quickly search and browse hundreds of existing scenarios that are rated for quality by the community will probably make it easier to be efficient with the calculations you decide to run on your own and will give you new ideas for things that are worth exploring / studying that you might not necessarily consider if you were working in isolation.

Hi swc123,

I see that GTORB license includes the access to the GTORB Flop Library. Do we have access to our own flop calculations? If no, do you plan to include some in the future?

Also, I wonder how can I look at the content of the library? I am thinking about buying the license, but I can't get to know the content.

And the last thing, how frequently and how much flop calculations do you plan to add to the library (of course approximately)?

Hi good questions!

Regarding running your own flop calculations. Currently the library lets you submit new scenarios that you would like to see added but there is no guarantee that I will decide to run and add them (however so far I have ran every calculation that a user has submitted). There is not an option to just run your own calcs and keep the solutions to your self at the moment although the may be in the future.

I will be releasing an update to the site within the next 72 hours that will let you browse the contents of the library without actually being able to view the solutions, even if you do not have a GTORangeBuilder account so it will be easy to get a sense of the content before you buy. I am also planning as part of the update to add a very small set of free solutions (probably between 1 and 5 initially) that are open to the public, no account required. I was actually hoping to release this tomorrow but I have been having internet problems all day :/

Finally, how much I add to the library depends a lot on how many quality scenarios get submitted by users. Coming up with high quality scenarios is a fair amount of work for me and I usually only add a few every day or two that I designed myself. I don't want to guarantee anything but my rough target is to add ~100 new calculations per month, at least in the short term. In the shorter term I am focused a bit on quantity but as the library grows I will be focusing more on quality. I think in the long term having 100 solutions about a certain game type that are curated and well constructed is more useful for study than having 1000 that are not as well chosen because as a player your study time is very valuable and studying a flop solution is a big time investment.

Hope this helps!

-swc

Thanks for reply, swc123.

Regarding free solutions that are open to the public, when I am trying to view the free solution (there are 3 free solutions till now), I get this:
"You need a GTORB Pro license to view non-free library scenario solutions. Please purchase a license." Why is this?

P.S. Long time ago I had trial license for River calculations.

Hi,

I had a permissions issue regarding the free solutions that should be resolved within about an hour.

Sorry about that!

-swc

edit: should be fixed now

Also on a related note, now that the permissions are fixed we've posted a blog post on the library with a bit more detail on how it works if you are interested:

http://blog.gtorangebuilder.com/2015...y-is-live.html

If i buy one of the license option like the 6 months for $299, would it be possible to

solve any turn/ river game with both OOP and IP having a choice of 2 bet sizes and all in at each decision point? With different bet sizes chosen for OOP and IP?

Hi,

GTORB lets you specify up to 3 bet sizes per node + a shove by default. It also features a visual tree editor that lets you manually add/delete/edit nodes in the game tree so that you can construct exactly the game tree you want for your scenario with as many/as few bet sizes as you want at each specific decision point. You can use different bet sizes at every decision node if you like. You can completely customize every aspect of the game tree. A tutorial video for the tree editor is here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7gOmfdIn0I

I usually recommend using a simple game tree to start with (1-2 bet sizes per node) and then manually adding/deleting additional bet sizes to key nodes that you are interested in studying using the tree editor. This technique also lets you study the EV impact of adding specific options. You can for example run the exact same scenario with 2 turn c/r sizes and with 1 turn c/r size and measure the EV loss that occurs from always using a single size. If that EV loss is near 0 then you can be confident that your time is better spent studying the simpler strategy, if the EV loss is large then you can analyze why using multiple bet sizes in the situation is important.

In general I have found that studying solutions with many bet sizes at every node is often not practical. Using many bet sizes at every node is usually not necessary when you can customize the bet sizing at each node of your game tree. If you put 3+ bet sizes at every node in your game tree you will often end up with a game tree to large study and with strategies that you could never implement at the tables.

In general you can run whatever river scenarios you want with as many bet sizes as you like. For turn calculations there are some complexity restrictions on how big a game tree you can create. If you run scenarios with very large hand ranges, deep stacks and lots of bet sizes at every node in the tree you may hit these limits. We will be increasing these turn limits in the coming months, but we will never be able to accommodate infinitely large game trees of course There is also always a tradeoff between the accuracy of your solution and the size of your game tree, but in general you should be able to run most scenarios and get a very accurate solution.

I hope this helps,

-swc

just want to reiterate that this seems too expensive

Thanks for the feedback, I certainly understand that its not for everyone and I appreciate your help in reaching an ideal pricing point.

We are trying to create an elite GTO community where people can study / share / compute GTO solutions and go beyond just trying to learn GTO by rote. Ultimately the free market will decide if what we're offering isn't worth the price but at the moment we are growing about as quickly as we can handle and are unlikely to reduce our prices in the short term.

Hey guys, I put up another free GTORB flop solution that anyone can browse with no account. It is also featured in my latest free youtube strategy video on minimally exploitative play, all of which is available for free here: http://blog.gtorangebuilder.com/2015...measuring.html.

The free solution is here: http://gtorangebuilder.com/#share_ca...U4JCnSaq3IBqaZ. This is modeling a CO vs BB single raised pot in 6-max with 100BB stacks.

Hi, I'm not a strong GT guy so I'm gonna ask a few (dumb) questions.
- Since today's games won't run if the at least a fish is sit, why players keep focusing on the GTO holy grail? I mean let's say we have found a complete solution for the entire game... This solution is unbeatable but this doesn't mean it is more +EV than an exploitable strategy against the fish...
- How do you actually apply the GTO strategies in real time? So you have found a solution and you want to apply it in your game, seems pretty dauting to me, what I'm missing?
- What are your thoughts for multiway pots? If I recall right, I watched one of your vid on CR and you state that if 2 players are playing GTO in a MW pot vs an unbalanced opponent, they ended up losing... is that right? So we can just blow up the entire GTO work letting the pot be MW?

Ty in advace and best of luck with your project

1) I think the biggest reason to focus on GTO strategies when in real life you are always going to be playing against imperfect opponents (whether they are a fish or the best reg they will still be pretty far from a perfect GTO player) is actually pretty simple when you think about it. How do you know a strategy is exploitable and how to exploit it if you don't know what GTO is? As a simple example, in my Flop C-bet defense strategy pack here: http://gtorangebuilder.com/#gto-dojo I show that on many common flops optimal fold to c-bet vs a 2/3rds pot c-bet is about 50%.

A few years ago people were generally applying 1-alpha frequencies to assume that an optimal fold to c-bet on all boards was 40%. Imagine you thought the correct frequency to fold was 40% and you run into an opponent who folds 48%. You might try to exploit them by c-betting far more than usual and picking up the "free money" from the fact that they fold to much when in reality they actually fold to little. Doing this would actually end up losing substantially, you'd be exploiting yourself! And you'd never really even know or understand why what you were doing wasn't working. My guess is that if you look around you can find threads on 2p2 where people in the past have justified c-betting a ton of air because "their opponent folds to c-bets to much" when they actually fold near optimal.

Understanding what GTO play looks like is the only baseline you can use to determine what parts of your opponents strategy are even exploitable and how to exploit them. If you don't know if they are betting or folding to much / too little how would you ever adopt an exploitative strategy to counter them?

To take this a bit farther, GTO calculations can also be used to compute minimally exploitative strategies that will show you exactly how to exploit a specific leak in your opponents strategy and they can tell you how to measure how big an EV gain you can get by attacking that specific leak. I have a free youtube video on that here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfMmaWO42o8

2) I would never suggest that anyone just mimic / copy the output of a GTORB solution and try and play exactly that way at the table. Instead you should learn to understand why GTORB mixes when it does, why concepts like runout coverage / blocker effects / etc are important and how they effect EV, why in certain spots in 3-bet pots you should c/rai medium strength hands on the turn, etc and apply those concepts to your game while at the same time using your knowledge of GTO to understand which parts of your opponents play is weak and how it can be attacked without opening you up to too much counter exploitation.

3) GTORB won't even calculate GTO play in multiway pots. If you reach a spot in the hand where you are down to two players you can apply GTO theory from the pot where the 3rd player folds onwards but I wouldn't recommend trying to play GTO at any point while there are still 3+ players in the hand.

Hope this helps,

swc

It helped a lot, again ty for your time and gl in your business

Glad to help and ty!

hey,

i bought the program. good stuff!
do you think about implementing "locked strategies" (f.e like simplepostflop) in the near future?

regards,
eike

Hi,

Yes I am actually working on this right now. I plan to use it heavily in my next strategy pack on blind vs blind play so I am working hard on it.

The solver already has this functionality built in and working (I still need to add a few more tests) but the user interface needed to let users enter / edit / share strategies at various decision nodes has a ways to go. I am aiming to release the strategy pack early next month and the strategy locking functionality by the end of this month, but it is possible depending on how things go that it might take a bit longer.

Thanks and glad you like the program!

-swc

I don't understand how those GTO software programs work. They assign a bet/call/check range and then they assign Villains reaction to those lines and come up with EV lines... but how are they coming up with these lines in the first place?

Isn't the only way to get a real GTO model infinite trial and error of machines playing against each other and playing every single combination of actions millions of times?

What is the programming telling the software to do?