We're not really at a point yet where we have made any decisions in this area. The upgrade price for people who purchased prior to 1/1/2015 will be very affordable though. And it's free for anyone who purchased after 1/1/2015, including all new clients. Also, for the duration of the beta full access to GTO+ is provided for all users, so there's really no pressure.

sounds good.... looking forward to full-blown GTO+!

That seemed to work, the answer/frequencies look more reasonable now

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So what if say i set a turn card of 2d, and i'm trying to find the most profitable strategy for MP+2? Do i have to lock for turn then run solver again?

Question about GTO+

The software looks really nice, but there's something I dont get.



Let's say we 3bet to 10bb, V calls. No rake.

So starting pot is 20bb, we bet 10bb and the software says it's 50%. Okey.

Pot on the turn is 40bb, we bet 20bb, but GTO+ says its 25%

I don't get it.... any help?

What those values mean is:
Hero bets to 10
Villain raises to 20
Hero raises all-in to 90

So when villain raises he only increases the bet by 20-10=10.
In movies actors sometimes say "I Call! And I raise another XXX".
What villain does here is say "I call your bet of 10 and I raise you another 10".
So after the call the pot would be 20+10+10=40.
And villain bets 10 into that pot, which comes down to 25%.

Should villain only have called, with the play proceeding to the turn, then we simply continue there, with the pot being 40 and villain betting 10 into it.

Should you ever be in doubt as to which bet sizes to use, then just go with the default sizes that GTO+ provides you with.
These recommended bets are how to get the money in in the smoothest way.

Okey, thanks, that makes a lot of sense.

I like the software!

Here's some feedback that may help you. Nothing crazy and you probably know this, but here it is:

- The hand matrix could be improved with an easy way to import ranges. Buttons to turn on and off pocket pairs, broadways, etc. And save ranges. And the drag bag could have another button to take out top hands. Basically like flopzilla, but with this new colors

- Instead of "range 1" and "range 2" I would prefer "OOP Range" and "IP Range", or a dropdown menu to set what position the player with that range is. And on the tree, instead of showing (1) and (2), it could say (BB) and (BTN).

- In the tree builder having the option to set betsizings in % would be nice.

- When I click the Raise tab or the Call tab. And then go to EDIT mode, it goes back to the Entire decision tab. I cant find a way to use EDIT mode in one tab.

- The information displayed in tabs is sorted by Equity. It would be nice to be able to click on Distribution and change the way the information is displayed.

Just my 2 cents.

Yes, the starting range menu was the first menu we designed and at the time we decided to leave out some of these features in order to speed up development a bit. Another reason for not yet commiting to anything here was that, given that this was the first menu, the look and feel of the software was not yet determined. Desiging interfaces is something of a creative process and I did not want to land on a particular look for the menu and come to the conclusion at a later point that there were inconsistencies with the rest of the software.

This choice is so that it works in any language.
Player 1 is OOP and player 2 is IP.
No explanation is needed and it's easy to understand for anyone.
Also, the text "OOP" would be too large for the player circles.
I've tried.


GTO+ is currently in beta and one of the features that is not present yet is a tree builder/editor. This will most certainly be added though. We have however chosen to first come out with only a very basic tree builder in order to first get an impression what people are looking for in a tree builder. In designing interfaces it tends to be preferable to first have a clear picture of what features will be used. This prevents realizing at a later point that additional features are needed and then having to work them into the interface after the fact.


This is because when you edit one action, you edit every action within the decision. So you can only edit the entire decision.


Ok, I'll add that to the list of things to consider.

Is it normal for sims to take between 10 and 30 minutes for dEV of 0.5%?

No, that sounds way too long.
Have you perhaps set the number of threads as 1?
If so, then please set it at 2x the number of physical cores in your processor.



Or are you perhaps running on an older system. The problem with old systems is that they don't process large chunks of memory nearly as well as modern systems.

Other than that, if you would like me to take a look, then please mail a savefile to support.
I will let you know how long the same file takes on my own system.

I was using 2 threads. I am now using 4 threads and it still takes more than 10 minutes.

Ok, but can you tell me how many physical cores your processor has? If the standard setting was 2 threads, then it sounds like you're running on a single core, which would indeed make the software slow. After all, this single core would need to run both the software as well as all other programs that are running, including Windows itself. Are you perhaps running through some sort of virtual system (for example, some Windows emulators on a Mac only offer a single processor)?

There's several ways to get the number of physical cores that you are using. For example, here's a program that will measure your core temperature. It will list the temperature of each core, thus giving you the number of cores: http://www.alcpu.com/CoreTemp/

I have 2 cores and I experimented using 4 threads but it remained very slow(over 10minutes and sometimes 30 minutes). Could it be that my computer is simply bad? It only has 4gb of ram(not sure if this is relevant). If so, would a ram upgrade increase the speed of the sims?

Well, once again, you can send a savefile to support, so that I can tell you how long it takes on my end, however, I get the impression that your computer is an older model. Would that be possible? It would really help to have at least 4 cores. Also modern systems tend to be much more efficient at processing large chunks of memory.

The 4GB of memory itself should be fine for running simulations, however, should you not have enough free memory then the solver will apply compression, which will be at the expense of performance. You can tell that compression is applied because the solver will initially fail to start and briefly show a message "Compressing ...":



In this case you will indeed get a better performance if you increase your memory. However, in all other cases memory will only affect the largest tree size that can be fit in memory and have no influence over calculation speeds. Other than that, are you possibly running the 32bit version? If possible, please upgrade to the 64bit version, which is strongly recommended. The 32bit version is only provided as customer service to the small number of users that are still running on Windows 7 32bit.

Email sent. Btw my pc is about 5 years old.

If I run the solver with the turn and the river, it says that we should bet trips on the flop. Which seems like a mistake, because the flop is K98.

And if player 1 checks, says that player 2 should bet quads.

I really like the idea to run the solver with the turn and river because it solves really fast.

Could this be fixed so we can get the same flop strategy that we would get without knowing what the turn is gonna be?

Hope my english is good enough

You have entered the board up until the river, so, in the screenshot above you are actually solving for the river. If you want to start at the flop, then please only enter the flop.



You can accomplish this by just entering the flop under "Board" (in the left of the screen).
So please just leave out the turn and river.

Hi, Scylla. When urgent issues have been discussed and implemented, a training mode would be a nice feature. Honestly, I am a bit surprised that this has not already been scheduled as it would add a lot to the appeal and usability of your software. It could also have kept you ahead of your competition.

will it be possible to solve with GTO+ for multiple betsizes on one street ?

GTO+ is currently in beta and not all features are available yet.
There's really no need to make feature requests at this point.

For the first beta we have decided to only offer a basic tree builder.
More extensive building and editing options will be available in future updates as part of a larger subset of functions for tree navigation.
For more details, please see the website: http://www.cardrunnersev.com/gtoplus.html

What's the difference between Nash equilibrium solver and max exploit tool, doesn't nash equilibrium solver take the highest EV line, so what i'm asking is why do the EV's differ when using one or the other?

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When will GTO+ be fully released and usable, atm it's being beta tested right so not every function works like CREV?

Max exploit is pretty much what is says. It's the strategy where the player takes the route of the highest EV for every single decision. So you are perfect, and villain is just someone who plays a fixed strategy no matter how you play. The problem with using a Max Exploit strategy is that if villain were to ever pick up on what you are doing, you become highly exploitable yourself.

A GTO strategy on the other hand is a strategy that is chosen under the assumption that villain is highly intelligent, and will adapt perfectly to your play. In a GTO solution, you will arrive at a mixed strategy that defends you against any counter-strategy that villain might try against you.

Now, what probably causes your confusion is that in a GTO solution, your max exploit strategy will not give any improvement over your current strategy. This is however due to how the infinitely intelligent villain plays, and not due to your own play. Should you choose to deviate from your mixed strategy, then you will open yourself up to counter-attack from villain.

So I suppose the biggest difference between the two is:
- In Max Exploit only you play perfectly; villain on the other hand does not observe or adapt to your strategy in any way
- In GTO both you and villain play perfectly; your strategies are crafted to defend against any possible attack

Software development always takes longer than you expect, so I would really prefer not to provide any timelines here.
You will see gradual increase in functionality though as we release updates for the beta.

Hello, if we want to use the Max-Exploit Tool and we have a unknow Turn and River for example should we in this case just mark the flop button?

Like this:



If I mark just the flop button then I will get different results in this example:





For both scenarios I marked just the flop button in the max exploit tool. So I had expected that I would get the same result for both scenarios.

Thanks scylla i understood most of those ideas before, but whenever i try running sims with software with the max exploit tool i always get weird frequencies or i don't quite understand the EV's.

Do you think you could give 2 examples on when to use each real quick and explain the EV's, if you are node locking assumptions/a fixed strategy for villain you use max exploit no (you told me to use nash solver so i did that as well)?

Good post Scylla