lol?

His reason for charging $475/hour is:

"I dabbled with some shortstacking a long while back. I haven't done it in awhile though...but it's very math based and I still have all charts/excel sheets around."

What more is there to talk about? How do you think that is not unethical? Just imagine him explaining his rates to a potential client with the above quote and how ridiculous it would sound. Also, I don't agree that he's been "honest" with his results since he only made that reply because people kept questioning and pressuring him in this thread. I doubt he was that honest when he first introduced his short stack coaching.

It's a ****ing joke.

You are way off. How can you say he has been extremely honest about how much is won when he mentions NONE of his results and posts ZERO evidence of them such as a graph or ptr in his OP in this thread? Seriously, all the legitimate winning coaches provide an abundance of evidence in their coaching listings. You say he has been extremely honest, wtf, he has been extremely dishonest. Look at the title of this thread, that is about as dishonest a thread title as you will ever see. The title of this thread really beggars belief. How many guys has he scammed with this thread title for god sake?

He is targetting the easy marks in the community, newbies and naive guys who get lured in by his mod status. These guys just see the green name and think he is legit. That is precisely why he doesn't post his actual results in his OP, because then he would have no customers.

Charging $475 PER HOUR for shortstacking coaching, something that he has hardly even played is just as ridiculous as his 100K micro stakes system. You say he doesnt make any claims of being a short stacking master in his OP...this the main problem with these scumbags, they leave out all the important and relevant information when they are selling their crap, they keep everything in a grey area. Then if questioned about this fact deep into a 50 page thread they will come in and say 'I never claimed to make xyz'...etc...

You make it out like it's not a big thing, if he just 'fixes the title/marketing practises what he is doing is absolutely fine'. He has been milking the newbies dry for years now peddling crap that he wouldn't have a hope of selling if he wasnt a mod. There is no undoing it. He knew full well what he was doing with that title. Blaming the title of his 'system' on Daily Variance is a complete copout, particularly when he actually has been using that title for his coaching thread too.

I honestly don't believe that anyone has paid $475/hr for shortstack coaching from this guy. Normal rate $60, SS rate $475. What the hell is that?

a scam capitalizing on the introduction of cap games to pokerstars last year

thank you for answering my previous question.

now i think we need some sort of explanation on why your charge for short stack coaching is over 5 times your regular rate?

Actually this provides more evidence towards it being ethical than unethical. He didn't try to sugar coat it at all and it's all in plain site. Anyone with a brain would realize that it's a pretty huge rip-off but if someone wants to buy it why is it your responsibility not to let them?

I agree with you about the title, and am not sure how I feel about the mod factor (not like he can do anything about that, he's a mod and volunteers on 2p2, mods get green names and it's pretty well known all it means is they're a mod not that they're some sick poker god or anything. On the other hand I can see where it could be seen as someone endorsed by 2p2). But you're just way off on the other stuff. He posted his results in this thread in plain site. He admits he's only made ~11k from this game. If people still want to pay him a million dollars/hour that is their perrogative.

This, I'm going to make the assumption that no one paid that amount. If so this should honestly be a non-issue and unless he lied/misled the people who did buy the shortstack coaching it's still not an issue. Coaches can charge w/e they want as long as they are honest about what they are selling.

A scam typically has to have victims...
Sorry if it seems like I'm speaking for split but if he can charge a certain amount and people are willing to pay that amount for it, why is it an issue? Again I still dislike his advertising practices a lot, I think a lot of them are scummy/unethical/possibly illegal. Charging a customer too much based on what it's worth is not a crime. I'm allowed to sell you a pencil for a million dollars. I'm not allowed to do it if I told you it cured baldness then sold it to you though. I'm not sure what the standard on 2p2 is about people just coming in to talk about how a product is not worth the price, but calling him a scammer over charging a lot of money for a shortstacking lesson is just way off from what I can see.

I have tried to stay out of posting in these threads but I have a few comments:

1. On his coaching rates. I feel exactly the same as Zach. Who cares how much he charges? He can charge as high or as low as he wants to and obviously his rate is just going to effect the amount of customers he gets. I'm pretty sure he has mentioned that coaching shortstacking is a lot of work, he doesn't like it etc... but if someone comes up to him and is willing to pay a very large amount then he is willing to do it. I really don't see the problem. He is not forcing anyone to pay that much for his coaching.

2. On his results/recent play: He definitely has been transparent with all of this info. His results are posted in this thread (albeit on the 2nd page or so, and they def should be moved to post 1, but they do exist) and he has said numerous times that he very rarely plays nowadays. All of this info is out there for anyone to see. If someone is going to make the purchase based on a few sentences about some "great system" or whatever and is dumb enough to buy the product without reading all the other reviews well you know what, they deserve to be scammed for not putting in as much effort to learn about the coach as they should (not saying the book or video series is a scam: i've never read/seen any of them/have never contacted split etc...for all I know they can certainly be useful)

3. On the title: Yea, it's extremely misleading and everyone agrees. Split said the title was not chosen by him but by DV (referring to the thread now). Obviously this isn't how it should be and he said he is going to change it. What more can you want? The title of the book is what it is, it's been like that for a while, almost every single book on DV is titled that way and it's up to the buyer to go through the reviews/results posted etc.. and determine it. But yea, someone should definitely tri to change the title.

thank you zach and SA16.

I think this is correct tbh. I'm almost certain I haven't had one single student at that price point ($475/hr)

Hey Split-

One thought I had is that it might be best to not even offer shortstacking coaching since you sell ShortStackHero's shortstacking/cap videos on your site which includes charts, push/fold stuff, etc. I know you were offering this coaching before his videos were offered on your site but it might help prevent any misunderstanding. Also I assume the shorstacking coaching was high priced because the first hour of coaching would involve them getting these push/fold charts or whatever and since the most "valuable" information is available right away you increased hourly price, so maybe to avoid confusion just explicitly say "short stacking push fold charts for sale for X price" and explain where the charts came from and how students can be confident they will work, etc. Maybe I'm off and it's not as simple as playing by charts as others have said here but just wanted to pass that along.

Best,

Pete

Noted. I am currently re writing/titling my OP and will make that adjustment.

Originally Posted by AntiHer0
a scam capitalizing on the introduction of cap games to pokerstars last year

Thats not true. A scam does not have to have been effective to have existed at all.

You realise you answered your own question here right?

I rly hate how people just wash their hands of split's involvement. I mean, it's his reputation and its something he is directly responsible for. This isn't diary of a wimpy kid, even though his dismissal of his own fault kind of suggests thats exactly what it is.

Since a few people have inquired about it (and I'm copying this into at least one other coach listing), while there are some comments that are probably unfair to coaches going on, we're going to basically let the conversation and back and forth play out before deciding on any potential clean up in the threads.

While there are clearly a few people in here ready to attack anything, fairly or not, there are also some truly concerned posters raising legitimate inquiries, and many more that are not posting that want to hear some answers to some questions or see changes made after constructive feedback was given.

So, things may be condensed or repetitive posts removed in the future, but for now we'll let things play out for the most part.

Please, try to keep your comments constructive and not too hateful. Standard over the line posts (attacks, trolls, picture memes) will be deleted, as will off topic posts. Any questions can PM myself or "I Be Forum Cop" here on 2p2.

So its been 26 hours since split said he'd change the title of thread and edit the OP, his managed to reply 5 times in this thread but not have those two things edited.

I just wanted to comment in here saying that I took a lot of your suggestions and changed my OP. The title, the content, added graphs, and even put a note on my current volume in there as well. I also wanted to apologize in this thread for the title of the video series. Anyone who knows me personally knows that I don't title things that aggressively, and I've learned a lesson from all of this. I apologize if anyone has felt mislead, or worse, due to the title. In the future I will be titling my own products and will retain more control over the marketing as well.