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Old 08-18-2014, 04:46 PM   #101
BalugaWhale
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re: LIVE NO LIMIT HOLDEM CASH GAME COACHING 1/2, 2/5, 5/10 Blind. Online 6max too.

I'm more than happy to offer input hand-by-hand if you'd like that!

Andrew
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Old 08-18-2014, 05:20 PM   #102
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re: LIVE NO LIMIT HOLDEM CASH GAME COACHING 1/2, 2/5, 5/10 Blind. Online 6max too.

Here goes:

Hand 1: this one is good!

Hand 2: You refer to JJ as "such a marginal hand" which sounds like absolute-value-thinking to me. Against this guy (one whom even you believe you should call down with one pair on a 4-straight board), I am ecstatic to play a big pot.

Hand 3: You'd barrel the turn to get your opponent off the handful of combos of TT-JJ that don't have a diamond (not v many) and instead get absolutely mauled by flushes, two pairs, AT, etc. Seems like classic "not sure where I am so I guess I bet". Turn is almost certainly a c/f, but if you really think that villain bluffs with 9x (and 8x, 7x, etc.) then it could be a relatively happy c/c. But betting seems like the worst option by far.

Hand 4: This one is actually also right - i missed giving you a point on this one. My fault.

Hand 5: This is like the least likely game ever for it to get checked through, and apparently also a game in which somebody who picks up a FD / SD on the turn and binks river is always going broke. So, putting a bet in on the flop seems criminal. Your reasoning behind betting seems to be to protect your hand from 22-1 shots (some of which are lower than your 55 btw), which seems pretty bad when you've got a table of so-called "super lag" players ready to pour money in.

Hand 6: An unknown (willing to straddle) who randomly shoves 82bb in preflop is either a guy with the stone nuts, or he's a guy who is there to get his degen gamble on. Given that you block the stone nuts and that you don't need him to be the degen guy very often, I'm pretty sure this is an easy call. Also it's a straddle pot so it's basically 33bb preflop, which makes it an uber-snap.

Hand 7: This one is particularly rough. There's no real explanation of *why* you want to 5-bet CIB, other than that it allows you to fold to his 6-bet (which I'm still not 100% convinced is correct even after you 5-bet). You don't mention the fact that, once he makes it 120, it's 75p with 680 behind (in other words, you have set odds), or that if he's ever bluffing, flatting could allow him to bluff off in a significant way. Unless he flats your 5-bets OOP (unlikely I think), letting him bluff / value own himself / keep stacks deep is almost certainly the better option. I'd only 5-bet KK there if I was stoked about seeing a raise.

Hand 8 we have already discussed.

Andrew
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Old 08-18-2014, 05:49 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BalugaWhale View Post
Here goes:

Hand 1: this one is good!

Hand 2: You refer to JJ as "such a marginal hand" which sounds like absolute-value-thinking to me. Against this guy (one whom even you believe you should call down with one pair on a 4-straight board), I am ecstatic to play a big pot.

Hand 3: You'd barrel the turn to get your opponent off the handful of combos of TT-JJ that don't have a diamond (not v many) and instead get absolutely mauled by flushes, two pairs, AT, etc. Seems like classic "not sure where I am so I guess I bet". Turn is almost certainly a c/f, but if you really think that villain bluffs with 9x (and 8x, 7x, etc.) then it could be a relatively happy c/c. But betting seems like the worst option by far.

Hand 4: This one is actually also right - i missed giving you a point on this one. My fault.

Hand 5: This is like the least likely game ever for it to get checked through, and apparently also a game in which somebody who picks up a FD / SD on the turn and binks river is always going broke. So, putting a bet in on the flop seems criminal. Your reasoning behind betting seems to be to protect your hand from 22-1 shots (some of which are lower than your 55 btw), which seems pretty bad when you've got a table of so-called "super lag" players ready to pour money in.

Hand 6: An unknown (willing to straddle) who randomly shoves 82bb in preflop is either a guy with the stone nuts, or he's a guy who is there to get his degen gamble on. Given that you block the stone nuts and that you don't need him to be the degen guy very often, I'm pretty sure this is an easy call. Also it's a straddle pot so it's basically 33bb preflop, which makes it an uber-snap.

Hand 7: This one is particularly rough. There's no real explanation of *why* you want to 5-bet CIB, other than that it allows you to fold to his 6-bet (which I'm still not 100% convinced is correct even after you 5-bet). You don't mention the fact that, once he makes it 120, it's 75p with 680 behind (in other words, you have set odds), or that if he's ever bluffing, flatting could allow him to bluff off in a significant way. Unless he flats your 5-bets OOP (unlikely I think), letting him bluff / value own himself / keep stacks deep is almost certainly the better option. I'd only 5-bet KK there if I was stoked about seeing a raise.

Hand 8 we have already discussed.

Andrew



Thanks a ton Andrew. Im in several sessions now but will go through these and give my thoughts. Thank you before looking for yours sir.
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Old 08-18-2014, 07:22 PM   #104
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re: LIVE NO LIMIT HOLDEM CASH GAME COACHING 1/2, 2/5, 5/10 Blind. Online 6max too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AintNoLimit View Post
This thread is full of the students and see the OP for the bracelet winner that I coached from the beginning,
This post is ANL's response to the post right before it. I believe this tells us everything we need to know.
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Old 08-19-2014, 02:14 AM   #105
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AINTNOLIMIT: Andrew, I have posted my comments after yours in each topic.

I respectfully thank you for taking the time to give your thoughts, and unfortunately i guess, I didnt find that I could change my mind on any of the questions. I was actually hoping that I would in fact.

Guess thats what makes poker go around. Thank you again.






Here goes:

1.

Random Med stakes interesting hand
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...-boat-1456028/

Hand 1: this one is good!
AINTNOLIMIT: Thank you sir.




2.

Vs a maniacal overbet shove.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...s-lag-1458386/

Hand 2: You refer to JJ as "such a marginal hand" which sounds like absolute-value-thinking to me. Against this guy (one whom even you believe you should call down with one pair on a 4-straight board), I am ecstatic to play a big pot.

AINTNOLIMIT: When a super maniac donks 2/3 pot on a T 8 6 board, I myself am not stoked about raising and fading a 3 bet (which i have no idea what his range would consist of at this time) with JJ. The hero pot controlled the turn as I would, and then I read the 1175 shove into 472 on river
correctly for the call when most of the forum went the other way folding.

This was an easy call for me on the river and was the crux of the hand IMO.

Getting in 300bb starting on the flop raising with JJ as a slight overpair would not be in my gameplan especially not knowing the villains range really in this particular spot. Raising the flop has to open the door for the villain to value huge as well as semi bluff huge (promoting a 300bb decision) in retaliation and I dont know which it would be as I dont know him that well on this type of board.

I have to stick with that myself but again, the river call was the main issue IMO here.





3.

Tough turn underpair spot
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...-oesd-1435468/

Hand 3: You'd barrel the turn to get your opponent off the handful of combos of TT-JJ that don't have a diamond (not v many) and instead get absolutely mauled by flushes, two pairs, AT, etc. Seems like classic "not sure where I am so I guess I bet". Turn is almost certainly a c/f, but if you really think that villain bluffs with 9x (and 8x, 7x, etc.) then it could be a relatively happy c/c. But betting seems like the worst option by far.


AINTNOLIMIT: Interesting. What range do you place the BTN villain on flatting this flop only? Flush draws, two pairs and sets? He didnt raise them on the flop? He flops a flush draw maybe 5-6% the time and raises the nut/combo draws on flop a reasonable % so yes, I have him on mid PP, single pairs, Pair+SD some, and a few flush draws sprinkled in.

And thus yes, I would barrel turn folding many one diamond pairs + slight overpairs as that is the bulk of the V range IMO. (Not flush draws nor sets and two pair) We are definitely off on our assessment of villains range there and then obviously creates a different line to be taken.

Checking here to me allows the V to do whatever he pleases with single pairs and single diamonds as he should never think we would check a flush there.






4.

Maximizing FE
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...cc-mp-1433845/

Hand 4: This one is actually also right - i missed giving you a point on this one. My fault.
AINTNOLIMIT: Thank you sir.





5.

Another interesting hand
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...-lost-1431446/

Hand 5: This is like the least likely game ever for it to get checked through, and apparently also a game in which somebody who picks up a FD / SD on the turn and binks river is always going broke. So, putting a bet in on the flop seems criminal. Your reasoning behind betting seems to be to protect your hand from 22-1 shots (some of which are lower than your 55 btw), which seems pretty bad when you've got a table of so-called "super lag" players ready to pour money in.

AINTNOLIMIT: I never really said that I was worried about the flop check thru, although many weak players slowplay in EP if they have trips here looking for someone else to bet and Im not letting that happen. If i donk for 1/4 pot all sorts of great things can happen here both as value as well as bluff. We are 400bb deep with some at 300bb and others covering us. Im getting the ball rolling here myself right on the flop.

And notice, the flop DID in fact go checked thru as I thought it certainly could in live multiway pots. I find that super deep when flopping the nuts its best to get money on in as allowing any street to check thru like this was criminal to me. I would have easily won this hand big with my line, and hero lost the pot by getting fancy and checking the flop.






6.

AKcc is shoved on
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...shove-1419123/

Hand 6: An unknown (willing to straddle) who randomly shoves 82bb in preflop is either a guy with the stone nuts, or he's a guy who is there to get his degen gamble on. Given that you block the stone nuts and that you don't need him to be the degen guy very often, I'm pretty sure this is an easy call. Also it's a straddle pot so it's basically 33bb preflop, which makes it an uber-snap.

AINTNOLIMIT: OP says the table is playing passive with nobody overplaying hands or spewing. He said this later before I posted. You might have missed this. I think so.

This villain shoved 82bb over a $20 raise in a 1-2 live game with passive players only? I wouldnt call that with someone elses money. Seriously.







7.

KK Deep issue
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...ck-kk-1412364/

Hand 7: This one is particularly rough. There's no real explanation of *why* you want to 5-bet CIB, other than that it allows you to fold to his 6-bet (which I'm still not 100% convinced is correct even after you 5-bet). You don't mention the fact that, once he makes it 120, it's 75p with 680 behind (in other words, you have set odds), or that if he's ever bluffing, flatting could allow him to bluff off in a significant way. Unless he flats your 5-bets OOP (unlikely I think), letting him bluff / value own himself / keep stacks deep is almost certainly the better option. I'd only 5-bet KK there if I was stoked about seeing a raise.

AINTNOLIMIT: This is a patented play of mine when this deep and the villain is the normal live player who is not Brian Rast caliber. This is 1-2 live, with a villain who I am quite sure will not shove 400bb with AK, nor QQ. I click back 5 bet small since I feel that its fine to place 20% stack in pot and fold when you are certain you are up against AA. Here in a 1-2 game if you click back to 230 over a villains 4 bet from blinds and he 6 bets, that is AA like 100% of the time. No white blackbirds mixed in there anywhere. AA is it. He will call or fold with AK, flat with QQ and 6 bet with AA.

I have done this as well as have had students doing this in live games successfully for a several years with great success reading players perfectly. Another close friend who plays at the Aria 3k 5-10 daily totally disagreed with me on this one, then 6 months later he apologized and said he has adopted the play since the V (even good ones) follow the line that I predicted all too often, allowing him to read them perfectly and pwn them with this play.

It works great except for some rare occasion you are playing villains on even higher levels who have seen your play a few times. Then - you may have to vary it. If you believe you know EXACTLY how the villain will react to the click back, then its a cinch from that point on.





8.

33 preflop
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16.../#post42625380

Hand 8 we have already discussed.

AINTNOLIMIT: I have to assume that you agree that flatting 33 on button vs wide CO range is -EV IF set mining only which was the assumed situation here. If not let me know as that was my position as well. I would normally flat due to creative play post, but thats irrelevant for the OP in this forum I figured.

Last edited by AintNoLimit; 08-19-2014 at 02:43 AM.
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Old 08-19-2014, 03:03 AM   #106
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The links that work are found in post 93.
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Old 08-19-2014, 10:48 AM   #107
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For the ease of viewing, I am placing some of the OPs here as well as BalugaWhales analysis along with the AintNoLimit analysis.

This should at least be entertaining/interesting for players to make their own judgments and compare to ours since BW and ANL opinions are quite distant from each other.

Have fun guys.

Bill/AintNoLimit





Here goes:

1.

5-10 NL live in Las Vegas. Short-handed. Overbet jam on river. I have a boat?
________________________________________
Villain in this hand is capable and non-retarded.

Effective stacks are ~1300
Folds to Villain in the SB who raises to 35. I call in the BB with Q T

Flop: J 6 6

Check, check.

Turn: Q

Villain checks. I bet 60, Villain Check-raises to 140, I call.

(I probably should have folded turn, but forget about this street. It's not the street in question.)

River: Q

Villain shoves.


My question:
1) Can we run some math on this? How large does the shove need to be before its a fold? Can someone assign some basic ranges to this hand and justify a fold?

So I need to call approx 1125 to win $1125 + 350 = 1475.
So I need to be winning 1125/2600 or 43% of the time.

Am I that ever here given action?


BALUGAWHALE: Hand 1: this one is good!
AINTNOLIMIT: Thank you sir.


AINTNOLIMIT: Im sure this is contrary to popular vote, but a thinking 5-10 player knows V has a Q here and overbet shoves this huuge riverbet because he has somehow QJ ---but most likely 66.

IF he is a competent player, he made this sizing for a reason ---and that reason is he knows we have the Q. When this happens --and I dont care how rare 66 is---when he does this, he has the 66 maybe 95 times out of 100 trials.

Thus, I fold. We are calling HOPING for a chop AND he has zero reason to believe we would ever in life fold a Q.

With all these facts to rely on, Im not going to bow up and say I cant fold a Q here simply because its top full. When the evident says you are crushed, I listen to it.

And yes, 3-5 times out of 100 he may show a Qx somehow. I wouldnt care less.







2.



2/5 JJ deep vs lag
________________________________________
villain: has been playing about a ~75 vpip ~25 pfr, pretty wild lag. this guy is an extreeeeemly aggro lag maniac, has been showing down huge pots with one pairs, Ace highs , etc.. has the table playing way looser than they are used to , calling him down 3 streets with their AK's no pairs , etc, .. however i noticed also when he gets a really good hand like AA/KK/qq etc he 3! huge pre/4!/5! even , and pot pot pots pots .. does not care about the board basically just takes his premo hand and pot pot pot.. he was running really hot for a bit too and was up to almost

1,000bb about , 20 hands earlier, and has spewed down to about 400bb where he is now.

when he doesnt 4! me pre, i am very confident my JJ is the nuts pre. Pretty great flop for us. He leads flop pretty small which is standard , i 3! him positive im good unless he miracle flopped, and he just flats which is another strong indicator that i am good on this flop.

If he flopped something like 2pr he is going to raise me allday, knowing that i am repping an overpair and that he has a crazy loose image. I really doubt he had the capacity to bet/flatcall... so he just flats and the turn comes a pretty scary card for my range.

but then he checks the turn. Which i was really happy to see. If he just bombed the turn here t wouldve been a very hard decision.He checks so I just check it back. River blanks.




$2/$5 No Limit Hold'em

Hero (BTN): $1550.00
BB: $1400

Pre Flop: ($7) Hero is BTN with J J

2 folds, CO raises to $20, Hero raises to $60, 1 fold, BB calls $60, CO folds

Flop: ($122) 6 T 8

BB bets $75, Hero raises to $165, BB calls $90

Turn: ($472) 9
BB checks, Hero checks

River: ($472) 5

BB bets $1175 all in, Hero ?



BALUGAWHALE: Hand 2: You refer to JJ as "such a marginal hand" which sounds like absolute-value-thinking to me. Against this guy (one whom even you believe you should call down with one pair on a 4-straight board), I am ecstatic to play a big pot.

AINTNOLIMIT: We are 300bb deep and when a super maniac donks 2/3 pot on a T 8 6 board, I myself am not stoked about raising and fading a 3 bet (which i have no idea what his range would consist of at this time) with JJ. The hero pot controlled the turn as I would, and then I read the 1175 shove into 472 on river
correctly for the call when most of the forum went the other way folding.

This was an easy call for me on the river and was the crux of the hand IMO.

Getting in 300bb starting on the flop raising with JJ as a slight overpair would not be in my gameplan especially not knowing the villains range really in this particular spot. Raising the flop has to open the door for the villain to value huge as well as semi bluff huge (promoting a 300bb decision) in retaliation and I dont know which it would be as I dont know him that well on this type of board.

I have to stick with that myself but again, the river call was the main issue IMO here.








3.

2/5 , can't seem to shake this hand... 99 flops OESD
________________________________________
ive had this hand from last night bouncing around in my mind all day , cant seem to forget it ..

2/5 eff stacks $1k , wild action table , raises are $50-$90 preflop often, 3!'s are usually to $180-240, but i am still an unknown and have only raised a couple hands. I have shown down one hand with AQ and doubled up in my first couple orbits vs a lagdonk.

Villain1 in this hand is the biggest stack at the table with $3-4k . I have not seen him showdown any hands but have seen him raise quite aggressively on flop/turn and had a few people fold. He seems decent and the table seems to respect him.

i get 9 9 in HJ , lagdonk limps from EP, i raised to $35 , Villain1 OTB flats , the lagdonk limper flats

flop (~$110) 6 7 8 .. i love this flop.

lagdonk checks, i bet $75 , button calls , lagdonk folds.

turn ($255) A ..

hero ??


BALUGAWHALE: Hand 3: You'd barrel the turn to get your opponent off the handful of combos of TT-JJ that don't have a diamond (not v many) and instead get absolutely mauled by flushes, two pairs, AT, etc. Seems like classic "not sure where I am so I guess I bet". Turn is almost certainly a c/f, but if you really think that villain bluffs with 9x (and 8x, 7x, etc.) then it could be a relatively happy c/c. But betting seems like the worst option by far.


AINTNOLIMIT: Interesting. What range do you place the BTN villain on flatting this flop only? Flush draws, two pairs and sets? He didnt raise them on the flop? He flops a flush draw maybe 5-6% the time and raises the nut/combo draws on flop a reasonable % so yes, I have him on mid PP, single pairs, Pair+SD some, and a few flush draws sprinkled in.

And thus yes, I would barrel turn folding many one diamond pairs + slight overpairs as that is the bulk of the V range IMO. (Not flush draws nor sets and two pair) We are definitely off on our assessment of villains range there and then obviously creates a different line to be taken.

Checking here to me allows the V to do whatever he pleases with single pairs and single diamonds as he should never think we would check a flush there. And I do not believe flush draws / sets etc. to be the larger chunk of his range. Not even close IMO.






4.

T9cc in MP
________________________________________
$2/$5 FR (9 Handed) Hero gets dealt T 9 in MP with $850 stack.

UTG (somewhat TAG but on the looser side) raises to $15/$300. UTG+1 calls/$350 (Tight/Passive). Hero calls (Playing TAG but on a looser side today) $15. Two more callers in LP.

SB (relatively ABC TAG but a bit station-y) raises to $40/$470. BB Folds. Villain 1 calls. Villain 2 calls. Hero calls. Two LP players also call.

Flop ($245): 8 6 4

SB C-bets, $130/$430.

Villain 1 folds. Villain 2 folds.

Hero?


BALUGAWHALE: Hand 4: This one is actually also right - i missed giving you a point on this one. My fault.


AINTNOLIMIT: Thank you sir.

AINTNOLIMIT: Take whatever line will give the higher FE. There probably is no FE here at all, but still I would take a shot at it by raising cbet to $295/call. Im representing the pseudo-minraise that players do with the nuts. Probably doesnt matter but still if anyone folded even 1-3% the time by outthinking themselves, then its higher EV for us than shoving. I dont see players folding overpairs to insta-shoves as they are transparent semi-bluffs to most OR better put, I think i get a few more % folds by the small raise on flop.







5.

Crazy action - 2/5$ - lost
________________________________________
Table is playing very loose in general.
Almost every pot is strattled otb. Stacks range from $500 - 3k+
Just viewed a 2k+ pot shipped to bottom pair. (Action was 3b pot that went heads up. 3b player barreled 3 streets and was all in otr on a A57-J-10 board V calls w K5o to scoop)

Hero viewed as ABC $1900~
V.1 rock/tag $1500~
All other V super lag 500-3k$

V1 Utg +2 opens for 20$
Mp raises to $60
4 callers to hero in bb w 55 calls $60
Utg +2 re raises to $180
5 callers to hero who calls

Pot $1260
Flop KK5

Now this may seem like an obvious action but I was truly perplexed on the BEST action.

Hero?


BALUGAWHALE: Hand 5: This is like the least likely game ever for it to get checked through, and apparently also a game in which somebody who picks up a FD / SD on the turn and binks river is always going broke. So, putting a bet in on the flop seems criminal. Your reasoning behind betting seems to be to protect your hand from 22-1 shots (some of which are lower than your 55 btw), which seems pretty bad when you've got a table of so-called "super lag" players ready to pour money in.

AINTNOLIMIT: I never really said that I was worried about the flop check thru, although many weak players slowplay in EP if they have trips here looking for someone else to bet and Im not letting that happen. If i donk for 1/4 pot all sorts of great things can happen here both as value as well as bluff. We are 400bb deep with some at 300bb and others covering us. Im getting the ball rolling here myself right on the flop.

And notice, the flop DID in fact go checked thru as I thought it certainly could in live multiway pots. I find that super deep when flopping the nuts its best to get money on in as allowing any street to check thru like this was criminal to me. I would have easily won this hand big with my line, and hero lost the pot by getting fancy and checking the flop.









6.

AKc facing huge 3-bet shove
________________________________________
1/2 cash game.

Straddle in the table. We don't have any info on the player in the straddle.

Dealt with AKc.

UTG limps 5$.

Hero raises only to 20$ since he is in on the btn.

Player in the straddle shoves 165$. UTG folds.

Do you call or fold in this case? I mean when you don't have an image on the Villain.

I called, but probably in cash games it is not EV+ to spread so many chips with AKc.

BALUGAWHALE: Hand 6: An unknown (willing to straddle) who randomly shoves 82bb in preflop is either a guy with the stone nuts, or he's a guy who is there to get his degen gamble on. Given that you block the stone nuts and that you don't need him to be the degen guy very often, I'm pretty sure this is an easy call. Also it's a straddle pot so it's basically 33bb preflop, which makes it an uber-snap.

AINTNOLIMIT: OP says the table is playing passive with nobody overplaying hands or spewing. He said this later before I posted. You might have missed this. I think so.

This villain shoved 82bb over a $20 raise in a 1-2 live game with passive players only? I wouldnt call that with someone elses money. Seriously. And please note: The AVG. 1-2 player does not adjust mentally to the straddle making the game 41bb deep instead of 82bb deep. He sees his $200 stack as $200 unless he is a 2+2 er and the like. When he shoves his stack, its almost always AA KK IMO esp when there is very little in the pot. Thats just my opinion but I feel very strongly about it.







7.

Deep-stack with KK
________________________________________
Effective stacks £800. £1/2 table, but everyone is straddling so essentially playing like a 2/5 game. Lots of money on the table, plenty of action but no spazz-tards.

Hero (£800) on the Button: White, middle-aged guy, dressed like a banker. Mainly 'cause he's a banker. Started out with £400 and doubled up but not by winning any big pots. I haven't had to show down any bluffs. If anyone is paying close attention they'll notice I am rarely (if ever) in a hand with junk when I'm out of position. I have only 3-bet once pre-flop in the last hour or so and everyone folded.

Villain (£1600) Big Blind: Table's big winner has been playing fairly aggressively but always seems to have the goods when called. Hasn't shown a single bluff that I've seen. That said, won the majority of his stack in one huge three-way pot with pocket Kings vs JT on a KTTxx board. He has three-bet once or twice in the last couple of hours (including with the Kings hand).

Hero is on the button. Loose/agro UTG1 player (been the most active and 'gambily' at the table)- makes it ¥12. Two callers, and folds to me. I three-bet to £45.

(tough spot here - if anyone has been paying attention, they should realize I'm not 3-betting light or just squeezing with some raggy suited ace. I don't want to blow people out of the hand, which is what I think happens if I make it £60 or more).

Villain 4! to £120. Folds to us on Button.

We could fold, flat, 5!, or ship. Merits/demerits for each line?

I 5! to £295.

Villain 6! ships. Pot is about £1,100, £500 for us to call.

Nobody does this with QQ or worse, right?


BALUGAWHALE: Hand 7: This one is particularly rough. There's no real explanation of *why* you want to 5-bet CIB, other than that it allows you to fold to his 6-bet (which I'm still not 100% convinced is correct even after you 5-bet). You don't mention the fact that, once he makes it 120, it's 75p with 680 behind (in other words, you have set odds), or that if he's ever bluffing, flatting could allow him to bluff off in a significant way. Unless he flats your 5-bets OOP (unlikely I think), letting him bluff / value own himself / keep stacks deep is almost certainly the better option. I'd only 5-bet KK there if I was stoked about seeing a raise.

AINTNOLIMIT: This is a patented play of mine (at least I have never heard or seen anyone else tout this play) when this deep and the villain is the normal live player who is not Brian Rast caliber. This is 1-2 live, with a villain who I am quite sure will not shove 400bb with AK, nor QQ. I click back 5 bet small since I feel that its fine to place 20% stack in pot and fold when you are certain you are up against AA. Here in a 1-2 game if you click back to 230 over a villains 4 bet from blinds and he 6 bets, that is AA like 100% of the time. No white blackbirds mixed in there anywhere. AA is it. He will call or fold with AK, flat with QQ and 6 bet with AA.

I have done this as well as have had students doing this in live games successfully for a several years with great success reading players perfectly. Another close friend who plays at the Aria 3k 5-10 daily totally disagreed with me on this one, then 6 months later he apologized and said he has adopted the play since the V (even good ones) follow the line that I predicted all too often, allowing him to read them perfectly and pwn them with this play.

It works great except for some rare occasion you are playing villains on even higher levels who have seen your play a few times. Then - you may have to vary it. If you believe you know EXACTLY how the villain will react to the click back, then its a cinch from that point on.





8.

$2/$5 NL: Critique my flop semi-bluff
________________________________________
$600 eff. I can haz 33 in CO. My image = TAG. HJ raises to $20. Only I call. V is a young, competent TAG who widens range substantially in LP. He also c-bets a high % of the time.

HU to the Flop: 4h5c6h Pot ~ $50
HJ c-bets $30...................

I raise to $120. I haven't raised anyone's c-bet since I sat down at this table which is 3-4 hours.

Good, bad? Why?


BALUGAWHALE: Hand 8 we have already discussed.

AINTNOLIMIT: I have to assume that you agree that flatting 33 on button vs wide CO range is -EV IF set mining only which was the assumed situation here. If not let me know as that was my position as well. I would normally flat due to creative play post, but thats irrelevant for the OP in this forum I figured. Normally I do not get into higher level creative postflop plays with tiny pairs in the LSNL forum as much of the time the OP in this forum will not be on that level. I felt fairly sure that when the OP flatted here he was set mining only and it that assumption was incorrect, I would easily apologize and give a different answer.


AINTNOLIMIT: (reply in the thread) Fold preflop unless you see two others grabbing chips to call as well.

Raising flop is "meh" as it will never "hardly" fold out better.

I would flat flop and expect V to never barrel air on turn unless a paint/ace hits the turn.

I dont really understand the discussion of FE since I honestly doubt the villain folds 88 99 and better. Maybe he folds Ace/pair on board some, but thats a teenie part of his range. Lets look into the future. V calls with TT. Turn brick. V checks.

Now what? If we bet, I still say the villain calls often since the draw missed. If we check, we just signed a contract to lose the pot 80%+ the time on river. Rarely do players go ahead and give credit to sets etc, when draws miss. I think we get true credit for exactly what we have--a draw.




I hope this was at least enjoyable for those taking the time to read and compare, making their own assessments as they go along.

Bill

Last edited by AintNoLimit; 08-19-2014 at 11:06 AM.
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Old 08-19-2014, 11:58 AM   #108
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RESULTS to the above, should anyone be interested in them.



HAND 1- VILLAIN HAD 66


HAND 2- villain has Ac 2c


HAND 3 - OP actually called the $150 on the turn , river came K

OP checked and villain bet $375 and OP folded



HAND 4- Spoiler:

The OP wrote:

It seems that folding on flop this hand would be bad. So it's between flatting, raising and shoving.

Hero shoved. The two LP players folded and was back on Villain. V tanked for a long time. The other EP players folded out of turn waiting for V to make a decision. V finally called. Turn A . River 2 . Hero shows. Villain shows A Q and scoops.

I also like the comment about raising maybe better then shoving here, something for me to think about.

Thanks all.




HAND 5-

OP wrote:

This game as a whole is by far the most active game I play in my area. People buy in deep and reload deep.

Most of the player pool are actually good thinking players who play deep comfortably and like action. There are a few bit pocket lag tards. I tend to sit back and try not to OVER gamble but at this game it's difficult not to want to splash around in a lot of pots as if it were an aggressive bingo game.

Many times I'm in the co-bb with very mediocre hands 92s 104s 57o Q9o etc... With an ep raise to 25-40 and there's 6 callers to me. ( Theres very little squeeze success when the game is in full juicy mode.). Naturally this is a solid fold. But when you know if you bingo 2p + it's pay day. (Gamble kicks in)

There's def something to be said about just mucking my 55 pre flop here. And in most games I feel fine doing so, but at these super deep, over juicy, gamooler lag conventions folds are hard to find. ( probably a leak)

I was first to act and like I said earlier was confused/excited/ boner tilting table mode. And with out tanking to long giving up info on my hand I felt that a c/r would be ideal.
Thinking MOST Kx hands bet something here. The rock W/ JJ+ possibly looking for the Kx hands takes a 2-300$ stab.

I checked and action went as follows
Check
Check
Check
Check
Check
Check

I cried a little inside but hey.. I'm pretty sure my boat is quite nutty and I'm betting out on the turn. "F all this checking." Rings out in my head.

Turn.... K
Board. KKK 5
Now the boner is gone my posture slouches and I'm check folding.

I checked the rock leads for $450

Action behind him jams for $12-1300 all day and the rock tank calls.

Rock. -JJ
MP. - QQ

I'm thinking I was possibly destined to lose this hand.
Considering the showdown cards a c-bet for any thing less than all my chips is most likely getting called by one of them and game over.

This post wasn't intended for a "boohoo" for me look I lost a hand "did I play bad"
It was purely intended for deep post flop nutt stragety. I'm glad my thoughts were on point with the masses.

Thanks all







HAND 6- Villain had AA






HAND 7-

OP wrote:

I obviously puke folded. Six-bet shipping 400bb in a 1/2 game, and I have two blockers to AK? I just don't think I'm ahead here one out of three times, not when we're this deep. I've seen 100bb effective 3- and 4-bets with weird stuff, and maniacs can do all sorts of stuff...but this guy wasn't a maniac, and we were very very deep.





HAND 8- I failed to see results posted.
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Old 08-21-2014, 04:18 PM   #109
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Are we going to get responses from BalugaWhale?
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Old 08-21-2014, 05:04 PM   #110
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Are we going to get responses from BalugaWhale?


I wouldnt expect a response since respectfully Im sure he stated his opinion and stands behind it as well as I do. So these comparisons are up there just for others to view and make their own opinions as to what they would do in these spots.
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Old 08-28-2014, 11:12 PM   #111
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You didnt even put the suits on these hand histories, how are we supposed to learn anything from this?
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Old 08-28-2014, 11:58 PM   #112
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I think the full hand histories are available in post 93 of this thread. I looked at the first couple posts in post 93 of this thread, just out of curiosity to see if suits are there, and it seemed to contain lots of relevant information for these specific hands in the individual posts, including suits. Just checked the 1st three from post 93, and it seemed to me additional and the best info available for review is there.

Hope this helps. GL!
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Old 08-29-2014, 01:33 AM   #113
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You didnt even put the suits on these hand histories, how are we supposed to learn anything from this?


The actual links are posted on post 93. I did not realize the suits wouldnt convert over. My apology.
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Old 08-29-2014, 01:51 AM   #114
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You didnt even put the suits on these hand histories, how are we supposed to learn anything from this?
God forbid you do a bit of research and check out the threads.

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Old 08-29-2014, 02:11 AM   #115
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Baluga came in this thread and gave the analysis 2.5/8

Someone is wrong in this thread and it's either Baluga or ANL. Which is more likely?
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Old 08-29-2014, 02:43 AM   #116
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ANL and Balugawhale are probably thinking on the same level... 1 wrote a book, crushed high stakes online, and wrote some essays, ahem.... And one mechanically 3bets

Just 2 different elite players with differing thoughts
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Old 08-29-2014, 03:17 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by BertMcgert View Post
Baluga came in this thread and gave the analysis 2.5/8

Someone is wrong in this thread and it's either Baluga or ANL. Which is more likely?
This coming from a guy that 1/ started the nvg hread stating bart hanson sucked 2/ has low quality posts all around 3/ plays (struggles?) 50nl online 4/ has had a hardon for bill for some trollish reason 5/ probably didnt read the hands discussed itt and would never understand all spots were close (imo)

btw yeah baluga is surely a beast. Go get coaching from him, ull be crushing 10/20 live (with ure pall bart) and online in no time. Bill will be of no use to you obviously, wtf does he know about poker.
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Old 08-29-2014, 03:51 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Marc14 View Post
This coming from a guy that 1/ started the nvg hread stating bart hanson sucked 2/ has low quality posts all around 3/ plays (struggles?) 50nl online 4/ has had a hardon for bill for some trollish reason 5/ probably didnt read the hands discussed itt and would never understand all spots were close (imo)

btw yeah baluga is surely a beast. Go get coaching from him, ull be crushing 10/20 live (with ure pall bart) and online in no time. Bill will be of no use to you obviously, wtf does he know about poker.
dude u are awful at poker, yes bart hanson is mediocre at poker, bill is not an elite player and you are a level 1 thinker.
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Old 08-29-2014, 03:51 AM   #119
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ANL and Balugawhale are probably thinking on the same level... 1 wrote a book, crushed high stakes online, and wrote some essays, ahem.... And one mechanically 3bets

Just 2 different elite players with differing thoughts
+2
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Old 08-29-2014, 06:16 AM   #120
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dude u are awful at poker, yes bart hanson is mediocre at poker, bill is not an elite player and you are a level 1 thinker.
Ill give you this: not sure if ure levelling or not.

But in case you are not: dude the point is not to know if hanson or me are good. The point is you are absolutely not in a position to judge lol

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Old 08-29-2014, 10:43 AM   #121
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Ill give you this: not sure if ure levelling or not.

But in case you are not: dude the point is not to know if hanson or me are good. The point is you are absolutely not in a position to judge lol

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again false. I tried listening to one of hanson's podcasts and it made my ears bleed. He literally goes into the most basic concepts, it was WA/WB spots. Anyone that has had ANY success in poker realizes that this concept was actually introduced by YABOY Baluga whale. It was called Baluga's theorem and he introduced it in about 2005.

keep riding their d.icks though, you sound like you are a perfect student to rise to the cream of mediocrity.
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Old 08-30-2014, 02:47 PM   #122
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again false. I tried listening to one of hanson's podcasts and it made my ears bleed. He literally goes into the most basic concepts, it was WA/WB spots. Anyone that has had ANY success in poker realizes that this concept was actually introduced by YABOY Baluga whale. It was called Baluga's theorem and he introduced it in about 2005.

keep riding their d.icks though, you sound like you are a perfect student to rise to the cream of mediocrity.
Do you not understand you need credibility before flamming anyone on this forum?

Being a 50nl beginner does not give you that crediblity (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/69...-50nl-1436873/ nice post btw, nice in depth thought provoking question).

Not saying a llsnl player can't participate in any discussions, far from it, but that would have to be constructive participation, a life skill you obviously do not have. Acting all gangster makes you look retarded btw.

Oh and thanks for the poker history lesson re. Baluga's book. Eye opening. I'm not even going to go into the wawb / baluga theorem comment you made.
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Old 09-16-2014, 03:03 PM   #123
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Do you not understand you need credibility before flamming anyone on this forum?

Being a 50nl beginner does not give you that crediblity (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/69...-50nl-1436873/ nice post btw, nice in depth thought provoking question).

Not saying a llsnl player can't participate in any discussions, far from it, but that would have to be constructive participation, a life skill you obviously do not have. Acting all gangster makes you look retarded btw.

Oh and thanks for the poker history lesson re. Baluga's book. Eye opening. I'm not even going to go into the wawb / baluga theorem comment you made.


Thanks Marc, and I imagine all the lurkers and possible students know by now who the real students are and who the trolls are. Its pretty obvious at this point.

Take care and cay next week.
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Old 09-17-2014, 03:30 AM   #124
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Simple little example of less is more, wasn't gonna post as it doesn't accomplish much except extract hate probably.

I was in the market to look for a live poker coach, my regular game is 5/T, I'm really wanting to improve and move up.

ANL was a candidate due to all the positive reviews until I started reading his strat posts. It made me smile as poker is still not dead yet. If his skills are able to crush midstakes games and have so many great loyal students than there is still a lot of money to be made in poker.

Good thing I made an effort and read the strat posts before I drank the Kool Aid and gave out some $ for coaching that probably wouldn't be too helpful.

Baluga's advice on the hands were pretty much spot on, but most were pretty easy imo. ANL chiming in and writing out his thought process really displayed how he thinks about the game and what poker level he is on. He definitely would've been better off staying quiet and printing money teaching beginners how to play poker, instead of offering his strategy advice and kinda outing himself.

I shouldn't write such a negative post and ruin a good man's attempt to put bread on the table, but also think that it would be helpful for some people to know that perhaps there are better options out there before they invest their hard earned money.
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Old 09-17-2014, 10:24 AM   #125
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Simple little example of less is more, wasn't gonna post as it doesn't accomplish much except extract hate probably.

I was in the market to look for a live poker coach, my regular game is 5/T, I'm really wanting to improve and move up.

ANL was a candidate due to all the positive reviews until I started reading his strat posts. It made me smile as poker is still not dead yet. If his skills are able to crush midstakes games and have so many great loyal students than there is still a lot of money to be made in poker.

Good thing I made an effort and read the strat posts before I drank the Kool Aid and gave out some $ for coaching that probably wouldn't be too helpful.

Baluga's advice on the hands were pretty much spot on, but most were pretty easy imo. ANL chiming in and writing out his thought process really displayed how he thinks about the game and what poker level he is on. He definitely would've been better off staying quiet and printing money teaching beginners how to play poker, instead of offering his strategy advice and kinda outing himself.

I shouldn't write such a negative post and ruin a good man's attempt to put bread on the table, but also think that it would be helpful for some people to know that perhaps there are better options out there before they invest their hard earned money.


Unit, I have to ask this question since your post falls under skeptical at best. The hands that were posted were VERY difficult higher level hands for discussion. If you thought they were easy, then you have a ways to go my friend.

If you were seriously looking for a coach, how then are you qualified to judge either of our analysis of the hands?

It would seem that if you could easily give the correct answers to those hands that you would not need coaching. And if you looked to the following post after the hands, the results that I predicted were 100% accurate. Yes, results over short term are meaningless, however I have the same accurate results over the long term. And those results carry serious weight.

I back my analysis 100%. Should you think they are far off, then coaching would not be possible since I am not used to the student harshly criticizing my advice.

Once again, players looking for coaching should look at the LONG TERM results of my students and their real to life success stories. Others who come in to simply bash me without ever taking a session should be taken with a grain of salt. lol

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