Hi Gordon,

Just curious if you can clear up some of the overlap in all the stuff you're offering.

For instance, does the new Bootcamp course make previous courses obsolete (like "No BS 6-max" and "Mastering 3-Bet Pots")?

If we buy the Bootcamp course now and decide to take a sub (specifics not yet clear), that includes the Bootcamp course, did we just pay for the same thing twice? In other words, would we have been better off waiting for the subscription model?

Hi Softspot,

good that you ask. There is NEVER an overlap. Mastering 3bet or How to crush fish are stand-alone courses.

Level1: Bootcamp (500euro)
Level2: Bootcamp (500euro) + -still to be decided- Sub (20-50Euro or whatever it will be)
Level3: CFP (sec deposit + requirements)

In other words, Level2 will never be cheaper than level1.

Thanks for the quick reply.

How about "No BS 6-max" (released in 2013ish) vs the Bootcamp (2016)? Is there any point in getting the former first (since it's cheaper) and then afterwards getting the latter - or is everything in No BS repeated/expanded upon in the Bootcamp?

I'm mostly asking because both claim to be a complete course to 6max.

You can look at the 6-max Bootcamp as NOBS 6-max 2.0 on steroids

The price and the list of contents should give you a hint what to expect. They are both "complete" in the sense that you get a solid framework to start winning, following what has worked and works for our 6-max guys. Start bringing home some buyins from the tables. We even have a €7 book that will give you a "complete" system for preflop and postflop. And it works very well for it's limits.

Of course no system is complete - and the more you learn, the more exceptions to the rule, and adaptions you can handle, and the more you start to ask for particular spots. So look at it like this: 6-max ebook for €7 give you a system to play. The NOBS videos that go along with it (€47) give you more practical examples and hand histories. The 6-max Bootcamp (€500 - currently for "early bird" price of €325 until the end of the month) gives you a ton more practical examples, expands on more specific topics, includes poker math, HUD, etc.

If you're unsure, you can start small, and get the €7 e-book. See what it's like, and if it works for you. If yes, go to the next step. If not - lesson learned for a cheap price.

Please make the monthly thing cheap and please make the monthly thing great

like access to more of the videos of your weekly student sessions (esp if they are topic divided like in the 6-max boot camp videos) but just more of that stuff .. that would be ultra enticing

have you thought of a level of monthly for just access to student sessions once they are put up .. i laughed in one of your videos you bitched at there only being 7 people there, i was thinking .. **** i'd be there lol

tbh.. stuff like that will get people like me lil by lil more in the door, and im gonna work this 6 max system and if i see i can actually win money, but more access to the weekly sessions would keep me pretty engaged over there, just saying

+1

After watching some vids, I have to say I'm pretty impressed. At first Gordon's coaching style terrified me, but I'm starting to see how it helps to get stuff to "stick". Sooo... I still have some questions before deciding which route to take. Is this the place to ask them or should I contact someone directly?

Guys, we try do to the best we can to make it affordable for different player-types, however keep in mind "cheap" and "great" usually don't go hand in hand. If anybody could point me to a cheap, but great Ferrari, that would be much appreciated...

Great coaches cost a lot of money, but we are creating new ways to let any player get world-class coaching, so there will be something for everybody.

You can ask any general questions here, if you have more specific/personal questions, you can also go to our website chat, and chat with support there (even if they are not online, you can leave your messages in the chat box). For more detailed info on the monthly packages, you will have to wait for a few more days to come out.

Okay, I think my questions are general enough to ask them here then.

First about the CFP contract:

1. Students pay BPC 25-50% of their winnings each month. At first glance this seems in keeping with the spirit of "you never pay anything outside of what you win". But what if I first have a 1K winning month, pay 500, and lose 1K the next month. Do I get the 500 back, since I'm at 0 profit overall?

2. Let's say I just can't get it to work - through variance or just being a spewtard or whatnot. After a year, having broken even, I decide poker in this day and age is not for me. Can I just quit, lose my 500 deposit and we part good friends? I ask, because I saw someone mention you have to retroactively pay a coaching fee (this might be something from the past and is not in your T&C, still better safe than sorry).

I'll have some more questions in my next post. Don't want this one to get eaten by the server because I'm taking too long.

My next batch is about what you get exactly with each level. I understand this might be difficult to answer, since you haven't ironed out the new sub plan yet. Normally, I'd wait a week, but then I'd miss out on the early bird offer for the BC course, assuming I want to get that.

3. Does the CFP program gram grant the student access to the courses that are sold separately? I'm especially interested in the 3-Bet course - my understanding is that a CFP student is given everything he needs to achieve his goals, so I assume there is no need to purchase this course as well. Correct?

4. What is the main difference between level 2 (BootCamp course + sub) and 3 (CFP)? If I go for level 2, will I still have access to the step-by-step plans, coaching and homework assignments, just maybe less of everything than if I were to go all-in with CFP?

5. Can I upgrade from level 2 to 3 at a later point? Specifically, let's say I pay the 500 for the BC, am blown away by it and then decide to go CFP? Is the 500 "lost" or does it become the security deposit (seems natural, since it's the same price).

@Softspot

1. No, you do not get it back. If that unlikely scenario would happen, typically you would iron it out over the following months. Meaning on months 3, 4... you pay nothing on your winnings, until it evens out.

2. There is no exit fee or coaching fee or anything. That used to be the case in the past, it's not anymore. You can leave at any point for any reason, and pay a % of your winnings, nothing more on top.

3. There's no need to purchase any course on top. The libraries and materials available to our CFP students far exceed any course we sell independently to the general community.

4. There are many differences - students have access to more materials than the 6-max bootcamp, they get more sessions than will be included in the monthly plan, a Micro student can progress into the higher level group and get materials+coachings for NL25, NL50 and beyond - we don't limit students, the higher they get, the better . Monthly will be focused on microstakes exclusively.

5. It's a bit of a grey area, because deposit is not the same as purchasing, you get the deposit back, but you don't get the purchase price back, for obvious reasons. Next, as I explained, students get more materials and attention + have to share 2.5k in profits on top). So it's not as simple to switch the purchase into the CFP deposit, and vice versa. There might be a cost related to it, or extra conditions on top. In general, don't count on it, but we will likely have a smooth way to transition and you will not have to pay a full deposit for transitioning. It would be a bit irrelevant as well, since that would likely mean you are seeing good results, and will thus finish the CFP easily - i.e. you should get it back anyways.

To double answer :

1. We don't send back right away (accounting nightmare), but should it become relevant for whatever reason, of course we do. In practice this never happens tho.
Should it become an issue, of course we would send back. However, you shouldn't win 5k, then get "super unlucky" playing NL500 (as a micro player), then quit the next day and ask for the money back .
That's why we have to be careful about the wording.
But again, this has NEVER been an issue.

Thanks again for the great support.

So let's say I'm on the $5K target, follow the program, win $1K the first four months, shove $2K to BPC as agreed, then go on a sick downswing - I lose $4K the next month. No tilting, 500NL shottaking, whatever. Just bad luck (hey, it CAN happen, I've run 60 buyins under AllinEV before ) . Disgusted with poker, I decide to quit (yeah, I'm a loser, I know).

Now what? I realise this is an offbeat scenario, but this really is one of the big things keeping me from joining.

Sorry to belabor the point. I guess it's because here in the Netherlands we are keenly aware how unfortunate a monthly "tax" can turn out in a game that has such high variance.

We're taxed 29% over our monthly winnings, no deductions for prior or later losses. So if I win $1000 in June and lose $1000 in July, my net profit is -$290. Which kinda sucks.

That should read "$1K per month the first four months.".

And another question - hope you're not sick of me yet.

In one of the free "taster vids" I received through the site, Gordon and one of his students go over spots to fastplay or slowplay. It's clear that there is a theory behind this of what to look for (stack depth etc). It's this kind of step-by-step instruction that I'm interested in the most. Which of the three aforementioned levels grant access to this?

I realize this might be getting more into my own needs instead of being a general question, so I posed the same question through the site. Feel free to PM me or answer me there if you feel it's too specific to answer here.

The video you're referring to is taken from the 6-max Crusher intermediate course. So, that would be level 3, but for the Crusher program (NL25+).

There's always a crazy scenario where we did not prepare and foresee all possible outcomes, and in 99,9% they don't happen. So we tend to deal with it as they occur. So far we never had any issues. The deal is, you pay 50% of the profits. It will never be exactly 50%, due to variance, accounting simplicity, downswings, upswings, BR management, shot-taking, etc. Overall, the spirit of the 50:50 deal will always be respected.

We're never sick of any honest question. You can keep asking us every day for a year. Probably at some point i would tell you how many kicks in your butt you need to decide... but we will always answer patiently!

Your personal tax liabilities are your thing. Some people say the situation in the Netherlands is not 100% clear as you make it. Haven't heard of anybody getting problems, but of course that is something you decide on your own.
Also, even "if" you have to pay some tax, you should be able to deduct the share you pay to us as you would be able to do in any business. But again, we're not tax experts in 197 countries .

And thus the buttkicking begins.

Actually I wasnt asking about taxes etc - just gave it as an explanation why payments on a monthly basis can produce weird results. I fully understand why you have to do it though.

I don't actually have to pay taxes over my poker profits btw, since I only play on EU sites. We're only taxed when playing on sites that aren't located in the EU.

Back to the buttkicking! The trouble is you guys offer quite a few options - and the finer details of some of them (the new subscription models) have not yet been revealed. All options have their advantages and drawbacks, at least for me personally (marginal NL10 Zoom winner). Maybe it'd be best if I shoot you or BPC support a PM so either one of you can kick me in the right direction?

Level1: Bootcamp for those who want to test out things for a lower commitment/price

Level2: People who want most of the CFP experience, but without having to update bankrolls and fulfill any requirements from our side (read: The family guy with a job, the young student who wants to play whenever he wishes without any obligation)

Level3: CFP. The 10000% committed, who only wants to pay us if he wins, but also agrees to meet requirements (like minimum playing hours, updating bankroll)


About you: If you win over 100k+ sample, then (imo) only CFP is an option and higher than NL10 we ONLY offer CFP (the crusher program).

There are no different levels at that point. I suggest you to look actually into the crusher program and take the next BIG step towards making REAL money.

To be honest, it seems like you have fairly equal options, and indecision takes over. If two options (bet or check-call) have similar EV, what should you do? Who cares, just take one and move on. The worst thing becomes losing time over it, when you could already be playing a new +EV hand in the same time (assuming you're a winner).

Clear answer:

If you have a sample of 50k+ hands in 2016 where you're winning at NL10 ZOOM, you should take the Crusher CFP. The videos you mentioned as particularly to your taste are the bread and butter of Crusher CFP, you will have tons in the Intermediate course. So it all points to the Crusher CFP.

I think I'm (finally) starting to get the picture.

The Bootcamp course (lvl 1) is pretty much what people get in the Basic course of the Micros CFP program - the step-by-step curriculum. No access to other material (video library/database analysis) or coaching.

Level 2 will add the subscription and includes a limited amount of that extra material. Again only for microstakes (NL10 and below).

Level 3 has two sublevels: The Micro Program (NL 10 and below, $5K contract) and the Crusher Program (NL 25 and up, $30K contract). Those are then further divided into the Starter, Intermediate and Advanced Courses. The Starter course is for the Micro program, the Advanced for the Crusher program and the Intermediate is a kind of transition course.

Have I finally catched on to it?

If so, does the Crusher program also grant access to the Basic course? I love (re-)learning stuff from the ground up. And vice versa, will the Intermediate course be accessible to someone who opts for the Micro CFP?

Good catch on the indecision btw. I'm prone to analysis paralysis when confronted with equal choices. After all, one must be optimal, if only by 0.001%...

Even a blind person will have noticed this by now

But at least you realize it's not a strength and have some humor about it. Many dummies here will tell you that you're "smart" for thinking forever (and doing nothing) .
My take is that people who don't decide can never be wrong, but they'll never have $$$ either.

About you understanding the options available:

Yes, that's about it, you fully understand the structure. Sucks that it looks so complicated, but it really isn't.

I think we should simply have a quiz for people and direct them automatically towards the best solution for them.

Crusher gives you access to Micro as well.

For those curious, I bought the 6 max bootcamp and I can give a quick over view reveiw, but keep in mind I have basically just skimmed over the package and havent gotten down to using the system or even listening to most of the modules.

As the index says there are 9 modules but they really dont do module 9 justice as module 1-8 have one video per module, there are acutally more videos in module 9 but in just 3 sections. I think its a total of 16 videos just in module 9.

Some nice extras come with the package, the HUD they want you to use, the no BS book, some kind of odds tool that looks pretty neat that one of their students wrote I guess, plus some extra charts, odds and stuff like that.

Module 1 is basically all the stuff if you joined CFP and I guess the stuff people are bitching about in this thread at times ( I gotta do what). GORDON EVEN GOT ME when i was listening I was like WTF! and all of sudden gordon goes; SOME OF YOU are probably thinking why am i listening to this when i should be studying strategies LOL.

All the videos are in HH format (you're looking at text of the hand as gordon goes over it) but not set up in a replayer type format, which really doenst matter but I could see some freaking over it. BUT ALL the HHs are done by Gordon

I really dig the format of the group session they do there, cant emphasis the improtance of being beat over the head over and over and these videos sounded like they do that, I think i heard gordon say, "cause you guys wont ****ing listen" about 10x.

The strategies seem pretty sound, but im a MTT player so I cant be a great judge on deepstack cash play. A lot of the stuff i heard on sounded spot on you know the if youre gonna bet the turn you gotta bet the river too type stuff (not phrased like that but ya know)

It seems to cover every conciveable situation with every type hand and a good number of hands in each video. But keep in mind its all low stakes, i think the highest hand examples i saw in video were nl10 but dont quote me.

SO ON THE SURFACE I DEF RECOMMEND IT at the early bird pricing, Wont lie, most expensive package Ive ever bought, but Im guilty of dropping $79 a shot on Jonathan Little webinars too so if all the strategies pan out then this package covers many multihour webinars. ALso wont lie, probably wouldnt even looked at this at 625 euros even if it was the greatest of all time, just cause Im cheap LOL

from what ive heard so far, Ive liked. so just an over view of this package

Be pretty awesome if Module 10 was a membership to get access to those group sessions that are a few months old that are just collecting digital dust. TURN KEY THAT STUFF FOR THE PEOPLE

Well I will be exiting the BCP thread as I created a blog over at your site (so if ya want to know more about me), posted some sample hands and workign the system like im there until im either there or not LOL

First of all, thanks a lot for the awesome review mate!

I have to quote you
The course teaches how to beat Limits up to NL10 (it's a bootcamp after all), there are of course no hands from higher limits, because we want to entertain besides teaching, we don't want to blindly entertain and poison/confuse your mind by showing higher limit hands. So what you pointed out is made by design.

I can tell you that soon the same course will get even better/enriched!

So on other vids you will hear me curse how "fckn lazy" many people are because i have literally explained every possible scenario there is in the game.
And by literally, i mean literally mean literally

Still haven't made up my mind. I swear if this goes on much longer, I'll switch my handle here to ThinkingItThrough.

I've been reading up on this thread and have seen that you always give ppl honest advice, even if that means recommending them not to take one of your courses. So I'm hoping you can give me the final nudge.

Right now I'm leaning towards getting the Bootcamp. I think all this hemming and hawing means I'm not quite ready to commit to CFP. My plan is to rebuild my game from the ground up. I'm mid-40 and just not sure if I'm willing to put in the effort to try to move up to $100 or whatnot. If the Bootcamp -and maybe a sub- can help me to comfortably make 4-5bb/100 at NL10 Zoom, then I'll be a happy (boot)camper.

So what's keeping me back? Well, there is a chance (though I think it's small) that I actually already know most if not all of this stuff. I actually used to make a killing 24-tabling NL100 FR back in 2006-2009. I've already had $10K months. But back then, all you really needed were some preflop hand charts and postflop discipline. Just make a set+, bet big and collect stacks.

After a break to raise my son, I'm now finding things are VERY different. 6Max NL10 Zoom in 2016 is MUCH harder than NL100 was back in the day. The rake has increased. Rakeback is lower. $100/hour has become $1/hour.

I've tried other stuff. Snowie. The Grinder's Manual (which I like a lot btw). PIOsolver. Some of Mike Gano's stuff. They all have their merits, but they feel like pieces of the puzzle. And I feel like I have lost the cover of my puzzle box, so I have no idea what the final shape should look like.

Given all of this, do you think the BC + sub will help me beat NL10 Zoom at a good clip? I realize it is a 100-piece puzzle and CFP Crusher is the 1000 piece version - but I actually like to start from the beginning. It also helps that I'm in no financial rush whatsoever. And I can always go for the advanced stuff later.