At the point where your choice is "I would acquiesce to just having my whole group slaughtered because why not, **** this" I would argue that the show has failed.

Edit: Again, contrast this with Carol shooting Lizzie. Nobody forces that terrible choice on her. Having choices forced upon characters isn't interesting viewing.

I think I would let my entire group get murdered instead of cutting my sons arm off with an ax. Even if I cut my sons arm off, we would still be Negans slave. IDK, I just don't see much of a choice.

That's really the point, the choice is between utter misery and utter misery, which is not an interesting choice. At that point I was beyond caring what Rick chose. Choices like "I'm either going to cut your eyes out or cut your tongue off, WHICH WILL IT BE?!?!?!?" are not dramatic choices. They're no-win situations that just make for miserable viewing. A dramatic choice challenges a character's morals and sense of self.

i mean, didnt they make a movie about like the worst choice oat? and it was a classic. so I think your premise may be off. no win situations can absolutely be entertaining and thought provoking.

Negan told Rick that they'd shoot the rest of his group and then torture Rick for a couple of years before killing him too. Rick wasn't getting off that easy.

Maybe im ******ed but not sure which film you mean. More broadly, all sorts of things can be interesting, but shows can only do one thing at a time. GoT isnt suddenly going to turn into an examination of family life.

wouldn't change my decision. one of those things mb you need to be a parent to understand, but that's just something I couldn't physically do

Oh man I'm going into the weeds on a C+ zombie show but I think, from Negan's point of view, killing Rick's group is the best play. Rick's group has been for 2 seasons essentially running protection for the groups they run across. They find some soft settled group like Alexandria, come in, and offer to defend them. Negan's in the exact same racket so there's no need to keep Rick around. They're not on board with Negan's group, the don't have a settlement to produce things, why not just kill them and then go to Alexandria and the other settlement and run protection on them? Rick's group is redundant.

Negan's not offering protection. It's tribute or die with him. He's acting like an old school king. This is a business thing for him. It's a bad business, because he's creating a bunch of revolt possibilities, but it is a business thing.

I'm not going back and watching it, but I thought Glenn was killed after Rick said that (Daryl caused it, but I thought it was after Rick said that). I thought Rick said that after Abraham was killed.

No, Rick said "I'm going to kill you," and then was pretty much immediately hauled off into the RV for Negan's little early-morning retreat. Not that I blame you; with the gimmicky way they revealed the deaths, it's pretty easy to get the chronology mixed up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie%27s_Choice_(film)

sorry, its proly not the same. still, tons of movies and books have been made about ppl in impossible situations with no win chances.

These are great points.

wtf if my dad were in charge of the group and thus somewhat responsible for the lives of many others i would be furious if he refused to cut off my arm, everyone dies if he doesn't do it anyway.. so in your opinion it's better that everyone be dead and the dead boy still have both arms than everyone be alive the boy miss half an arm, that's some sick **** man

ill concede that i see your point that everything sucks and can kinda see where you're coming from, but at least while living you have some hope, even if you don't think you can stand against negan at some point in the future you can just run, bam, you, your son and all your friends get to survive, i know i would sacrifice one of my forearms for the lives of many others


edit- kneel, you are trading your sons forearm for the lives of several ppl, that's not heartwarming that's insane, kid is going to die if you don't do it, but luckily he still has a forearm??

Also, I wouldn't expect any other parent to do that to their kid to save my life and would completely understand as the bat was coming down onto my head.

Even if I was being tortured, I don't think I would be saying, "Man, only if you would have cut your kids arm off with that ax".

Sacrificing my limb yeah, not my kids. I take it you don't have kids.

fyi, he walked back his post a TON

Gore is the only entertaining aspect of this show, I for one quite enjoyed Glenn's half bashed in skull with his eye popping out after all the annoying scenes he has put us through throughout the seasons.

Exactly, I mean the long talk with Enid scene alone was every bit as bad to this viewer as getting my head caved in.


And just lol at some otherwise decent posters trying to break this down like it's some golden age staple. Newsflash: This show is and always has been a total POS. 9 paragraphs on Rick's inner workings or w/e is beyond the pale.

The Verge's "Walking Dead Quitters Club" published a we're done here article after this ep. This quote sums up what I've been trying to say ITT:

yeh i was afraid my first post sounded like i was insulting him and that wasn't my intention.

but rick already said negan could have his arm, negan said no, what do you do then? i think most ppl would at least offer to sacrifice themselves first over their kid, but if you aren't allowed to do you just let everyone die?

as someones kid i would be ashamed of my father if he couldn't do something difficult to save the lives of many, lets also not forgot the kid is going to die if you don't do it anyway, so in a way youre killing your kid

ffs it's one arm vs several peoples lives how is this even a thought

you are correct, but what about respecting your child as a person with their own desires?

your kid says, " dad i love you and i love these people, i want all of us to be able to spend more time together, if this is what it takes do it"

then you say, " oh no son i love you i need to let all of us die, you'll understand one day when you have kids...ohwait"

Chris, they'll be watching next week, guarantee it. If every episode is an uncomfortable bloodbath like last week, yeah, it will lose more than half its viewers by the end of this season. But it won't be, and the satisfaction viewers will get from Negan's end (if he has an end) will probably drive ratings up once again once we get past whatever drop there is from this episode (the ratings always fall after the season premiere, so unless it's something like half next week, it's no big deal, and even if it does drop half or more it's still not a big deal).

As an aside about the ratings, this episode was 2nd behind The Walking Dead season 5 premiere (can't verify it, but I'm pretty sure that would make it the second highest scripted cable broadcast in TV history). To give some perspective, here are some fun facts:

1. The season premiere had an 8.4 in the 18-49 demo (only behind the 8.7 in the 18-49 demo for the premiere of season 5).

2. The first game of The World Series last night had a 5.4 in the 18-49 demo.

3. Sunday Night Football, this week, had a 6.0 in the 18-49 demo.

4. The highest rated scripted TV show from two weeks ago (way behind The Walking Dead's numbers this week), The Big Bang Theory, had a 7 day DVR time shifted viewership of 5.4 in the 18-49 demo (only a 3.4 in its Live + Same Day viewing, which was .1 behind the highest rated Live + Same Day viewing, show Empire at a 3.5).

5. The highest rated scripted shows (outside a few aberrations, such as the final season of Breaking Bad or Game of Thrones) on TV are always on network TV. I haven't seen what today's number is, but 2 years ago, basic cable networks had penetration in 80 percent of households. That means that The Walking Dead is nearly tripling the highest rated network TV shows, while being able to be seen in 20 percent fewer homes.

6. The Walking Dead could lose 6.4 in its 18-49 Live + Same Day viewing numbers, and still be considered a hit on network TV (without even factoring in DVR).

7. The Walking Dead could lose about 6.9 in its 18-49 Live + Same Day viewing numbers, and likely still get renewed on network TV.

8. The spread between the numbers for what would make The Walking Dead be considered a hit on network TV and what it got would be enough to get 4 network scripted shows renewed.

9. If The Walking Dead lost NINETY percent of its viewers in the 18-49 demo, the remaining 10 percent of the audience would still be enough for the show to be renewed as long as the creators of the show would want it on the air.

That shows the impact of this show. You can say whatever you want about its quality, but this show has connected with audiences in ways you can't even begin to imagine. And that's in an era where almost zero shows connect with large audiences on TV anymore, anywhere. To be able to do that over 7 seasons is nothing short of astonishing. We are witnessing one of the most insane pieces of TV history I've ever seen, and I say that practically every year about this show.

In 2010, I was supposed to work on something in relation to the show, but it didn't have the budget to be able to use me. That seems so silly now, even though it seemed silly then too.

Your stance is the same as Carl's. And we all know he's always been the true leader on this show.