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Old 11-09-2011, 10:58 AM   #101
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Re: TV Ratings Discussion

Update with last week's ratings (FRI - THURS).

A few observations...
  • We all know the Simpson's heyday has long past but it's still a force. Last week's Treehouse of Terror episode tied with X-Factor for top spot at Fox.
  • Glee continues to fade. I predicted last year that this show was going to crash and burn this season. The show was never good but caught on as a fad and Ryan Murphy certainly milked it with the itunes releases and live tours. The fad is coming to an end. I expect to hear that Murphy has shelved his spin-off plan any week now.
  • Our OOTV buddy fsoyars may be in trouble with Man Up! struggling to find an audience. However ABC did order more scripts for Pan Am so I suppose anything is possible.
  • Walking Dead continues to drop steadily. Hopefully audiences are catching on that this show is a steaming pile with some of the worst writing and plotting on television.
    EDIT: Sadly, it looks like WD had a 0.3 uptick this week to finish with a 3.4






Last Weeks Ratings 18-49
Fri-Thurs (Previous Weeks in Brackets):


These ratings are for live broadcast only.
Red=Repeat episode

Fox
4.0 (---) (---) (---) (3.0) (3.9) (---) (2.4) The Simpsons
4.0 (---) (---) (---) (4.1) (4.1) (4.4) (---) The X Factor (We)
3.7 (---) (---) (3.7) (4.0) (3.9) (4.3) (---) The X Factor (Th)
3.6 (---) (---) (---) (4.3) (4.5) (4.8) (---) New Girl
3.3 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (1.0) Bones
3.2 (---) (---) (---) (3.5) (4.1) (---) (1.9) Family Guy
3.0 (---) (---) (---) (3.6) (3.7) (4.0) (1.0) Glee
2.5 (---) (3.1) (2.7) (3.9) (---) (---) (---) House
2.5 (---) (---) (---) (2.9) (2.9) (3.1) (0.8) Raising Hope
2.4 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Allen Gregory
2.4 (---) (---) (---) (2.6) (3.1) (---) (---) Cleveland Show
2.1 (---) (2.8) (2.5) (3.1) (3.1) (---) (---) Terra Nova
1.4 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) America’s Most Wanted
--- (1.4) (1.4) (1.6) (1.7) (1.6) (1.0) (0.9) Kitchen Nightmares
--- (0.5) (1.2) (1.3) (1.2) (1.5) (0.6) (0.6) Fringe
--- (---) (---) (---) (---) (1.0) (1.1) (1.0) Cops


NBC
9.3 (5.2) (6.6) (8.9) (7.7) (8.3)(10.0)(10.7) Sunday Football
3.2 (2.9) (1.5) (3.3) (3.2) (3.5) (3.9) (1.4) The Office
2.3 (2.0) (1.9) (2.0) (2.1) (2.3) (3.6) (---) Biggest Loser
2.2 (---) (2.0) (2.1) (2.0) (2.2) (2.1) (2.2) Parenthood
2.1 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Grimm
2.1 (1.8) (1.1) (2.1) (1.9) (2.1) (2.1) (---) Parks and Recreation
2.1 (2.0) (1.1) (2.0) (2.3) (2.5) (3.3) (---) Whitney
2.0 (---) (2.2) (2.1) (2.1) (2.1) (2.4) (---) Law & Order SVU
1.8 (1.1) (2.1) (2.1) (2.3) (2.1) (2.3) (3.7) Up All Night
1.7 (1.4) (0.9) (1.7) (1.5) (1.8) (1.7) (0.6) Community
1.4 (1.5) (1.6) (1.5) (1.8) (1.7) (1.9) (---) Sing-Off
1.3 (1.0) (1.5) (1.4) (1.6) (2.0) (1.5) (1.8) Dateline
1.2 (1.1) (0.8) (1.3) (1.5) (1.5) (1.8) (---) Prime Suspect
1.1 (0.8) (1.3) (1.2) (1.2) (1.2) (1.2) (---) Harry’s Law
1.0 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Chuck
1.0 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Rock Center



ABC
5.7 (4.5) (5.7) (5.9) (5.7) (5.7) (6.1) (1.8) Modern Family
3.9 (4.0) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Once Upon A Time
3.6 (3.7) (3.6) (3.6) (3.1) (3.6) (4.3) (1.0) Grey’s Anatomy
3.4 (3.5) (3.0) (3.2) (2.8) (3.1) (---) (---) Happy Endings
3.1 (3.0) (2.7) (2.8) (3.0) (3.2) (---) (---) Desperate Housewives
3.1 (3.4) (3.1) (3.0) (3.1) (3.3) (---) (---) Suburgatory
3.0 (3.2) (3.0) (2.9) (2.8) (2.7) (3.1) (1.3) The Middle
3.0 (2.7) (2.5) (2.7) (2.4) (2.7) (3.3) (---) Revenge
2.8 (3.2) (3.3) (3.0) (3.1) (3.3) (4.0) (---) Dancing/Stars (Mo)
2.8 (2.6) (2.6) (3.3) (2.9) (2.9) (2.9) (---) Dancing/Stars (Tu)
2.7 (2.4) (2.5) (2.1) (2.5) (3.1) (3.2) (---) Castle
2.7 (2.8) (3.1) (3.6) (---) (---) (---) (---) Last Man Standing
2.6 (2.4) (2.3) (2.3) (2.1) (2.8) (---) (---) Private Practice
2.1 (0.7) (---) (1.6) (1.8) (2.2) (3.0) (---) College Football (Sa)
1.9 (1.8) (1.9) (1.8) (2.0) (1.8) (2.2) (---) Body of Proof
1.8 (2.0) (2.4) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Man Up!
1.8 (1.8) (1.8) (1.9) (2.6) (3.1) (---) (---) Pan Am
1.2 (---) (1.2) (1.3) (1.2) (1.5) (2.1) (---) Charlie’s Angels
1.2 (2.0) (1.2) (1.1) (1.2) (1.0) (1.2) (1.0) 20/20
1.0 (1.5) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Extreme MHE



CBS
5.4 (4.6) (5.1) (4.6) (4.5) (4.9) (5.0) (2.5) Big Bang Theory
4.7 (5.5) (5.3) (5.9) (6.2) (7.4) (10.7)(1.2) 2 Men
4.3 (4.5) (4.4) (4.3) (4.5) (4.6) (7.1) (---) 2 Broke Girls
4.2 (4.3) (4.2) (4.0) (4.5) (4.5) (5.0) (1.2) How I Met Your Mother
4.1 (2.3) (1.7) (3.2) (3.5) (2.3) (2.9) (1.3) 60 Minutes
3.9 (4.1) (3.9) (4.0) (4.2) (5.2) (4.3) (1.7) NCIS
3.7 (2.8) (3.9) (3.8) (3.8) (3.6) (4.1) (---) Criminal Minds
3.7 (4.2) (3.9) (3.9) (4.3) (4.8) (---) (---) Mike & Molly
3.7 (3.3) (3.6) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Rules of Engagement
3.6 (3.5) (3.3) (3.2) (3.1) (3.2) (3.2) (3.4) Survivor
3.4 (3.7) (3.4) (3.3) (3.4) (3.6) (3.6) (1.7) NCIS LA
3.0 (2.7) (2.7) (2.8) (3.2) (3.0) (---) (---) Amazing Race
3.0 (3.1) (3.1) (2.7) (3.2) (3.3) (3.4) (---) Hawaii Five-0
2.9 (2.5) (2.5) (2.5) (2.7) (2.6) (2.8) (1.5) The Mentalist
2.7 (2.0) (2.6) (2.6) (2.9) (3.1) (3.2) (---) CSI
2.7 (2.7) (2.7) (2.8) (2.6) (2.7) (3.1) (---) Person of Interest
2.3 (2.5) (2.5) (2.3) (2.5) (2.5) (2.9) (---) Unforgettable
2.2 (2.1) (2.4) (2.2) (2.4) (2.3) (1.1) (---) CSI Miami
2.0 (2.0) (2.1) (2.1) (2.2) (2.2) (1.1) (0.9) The Good Wife
1.4 (1.8) (1.7) (1.6) (1.7) (1.8) (0.8) (0.7) CSI NY
--- (1.7) (1.8) (1.9) (1.8) (2.0) (0.9) (0.8) Blue Bloods
1.3 (1.1) (0.9) (0.9) (---) (1.2) (1.1) (0.9) 48 Hours
1.0 (1.2) (1.2) (1.2) (1.2) (1.4) (---) (---) A Gifted Man



CW
1.6 (1.5) (1.4) (1.4) (1.2) (1.3) (1.2) (1.5) Vampire Diaries
0.9 (0.9) (0.9) (0.8) (0.8) (1.0) (0.9) (1.3) Secret Circle
--- (0.8) (0.6) (0.6) (0.8) (0.8) (---) (---) Hart of Dixie
0.8 (1.0) (0.9) (0.8) (0.8) (0.8) (0.7) (0.9) Next Top Model
0.8 (0.3) (0.8) (0.7) (0.6) (0.9) (0.9) (1.2) Ringer
--- (0.7) (0.6) (0.6) (0.7) (0.7) (---) (---) Gossip Girl
0.7 (---) (0.8) (0.8) (0.7) (0.8) (0.7) (0.9) 90210
0.7 (0.8) (0.8) (0.7) (0.7) (0.8) (---) (0.3) Supernatural
0.6 (0.6) (0.5) (0.5) (0.6) (0.6) (---) (0.3) Nikita



Cable shows
3.1 (3.6) (3.8) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) The Walking Dead
1.9 (2.0) (2.0) (1.9) (1.9) (1.7) (1.9) (2.0) Sons of Anarchy
1.9 (1.4) (1.9) (1.7) (1.7) (1.7) (1.9) (0.9) Tosh.0
1.8 (1.8) (1.7) (1.9) (1.7) (1.6) (1.6) (1.4) WWE Entertainment
1.6 (1.7) (1.5) (1.4) (1.6) (---) (---) (---) American Horror Story
1.6 (1.6) (1.4) (1.7) (1.5) (---) (---) (---) South Park
1.3 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Gold Rush Alaska
1.3 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) NASCAR
1.3 (1.0) (1.2) (1.3) (1.0) (1.0) (1.4) (---) Workaholics
1.2 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Next Iron Chef
1.1 (1.8) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Beavis and Butt-head
1.1 (0.9) (0.9) (0.9) (1.1) (1.3) (1.2) (1.4) It’s Always Sunny
1.1 (1.1) (1.0) (1.0) (---) (---) (---) (---) Psych
1.0 (1.1) (1.0) (1.2) (1.1) (1.3) (---) (---) Boardwalk Empire
1.0 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Burn Notice
1.0 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Covert Affairs
0.9 (0.9) (0.7) (0.5) (0.7) (0.6) (0.6) (0.7) Daily Show (We)
0.9 (0.7) (0.8) (0.8) (0.8) (0.8) (---) (---) Mythbusters
0.9 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Real Housewives Atl
0.9 (1.1) (1.1) (1.0) (1.0) (0.9) (---) (---) Real Housewives BH
0.9 (0.8) (0.8) (0.8) (0.7) (1.2) (---) (---) Real World
0.9 (0.8) (0.9) (0.9) (1.1) (1.2) (---) (---) Sister Wives
0.9 (---) (1.0) (0.9) (0.7) (1.0) (0.9) (---) Ultimate Fighter
0.8 (0.7) (0.7) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) American Hoggers
0.8 (0.8) (0.9) (---) (1.0) (0.9) (---) (---) Bad Girls Club
0.8 (0.7) (0.4) (0.6) (0.9) (1.0) (0.8) (---) College Football (Th)
0.8 (0.8) (0.9) (0.6) (0.8) (0.8) (1.0) (0.6) Daily Show (Tu)
0.8 (0.9) (0.7) (0.9) (1.1) (---) (---) (---) Dexter
0.8 (0.7) (---) (---) (0.7) (---) (---) (---) Pretend Time
0.8 (0.8) (1.0) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Robot Chicken
0.8 (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) (---) Top Chef

Last edited by Wires; 11-09-2011 at 11:14 AM.
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Old 11-09-2011, 12:59 PM   #102
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Re: TV Ratings Discussion

In the LOLnumber of the week, the Robin Roberts special had a 1.7 in the 18-49 with 8.64 million viewers. That's competitive with Body of Proof's numbers this season. Bye bye Body of Proof. That show has never not been led in by DWTS, and its numbers are very sub par, coming off a results show. If ABC were interested, they could do a presto switcho, and move Pan Am to this slot. Body of Proof fits in better with ABC's Sunday night fantasy line up, anyway.

That move could save both shows, but I'm guessing ABC doesn't want to piss off Delany, by putting her behind the show she came from, Desperate Housewives.

At any rate, those Robin Roberts numbers are terrible news for Body of Proof, in my opinion.
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Old 11-09-2011, 01:45 PM   #103
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Re: TV Ratings Discussion

The New Girl having 6.8 million viewers and a 3.5 rating is pretty awesome.
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Old 11-09-2011, 01:46 PM   #104
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Re: TV Ratings Discussion

It's pretty similar to The Walking Dead with low overall and extremely high 18-49.
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Old 11-09-2011, 02:39 PM   #105
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Re: TV Ratings Discussion

All - from the numbers and your perception of the market, how would you rank the "Big 4" Networks in terms of their fall launch? (As a reminder, FOX only programs 2 hours of primetime vs. CBS/ABC/NBC programming 3 hours.)
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Old 11-09-2011, 02:41 PM   #106
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Re: TV Ratings Discussion

ABC
CBS
FOX
NBC
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Old 11-09-2011, 02:44 PM   #107
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Re: TV Ratings Discussion

Do you mean new shows, or old shows?

I would rank it, for new shows:

1. ABC
2. CBS
3. FOX
4. NBC

For all shows, for me:

1. CBS
2. NBC
3. ABC
4. FOX

My rankings are only for scripted TV I watch, and probably more based on quality than ratings.

If it's just ratings we're talking about, overall, it's clearly:

1. CBS
2. ABC
3. FOX
4. NBC
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Old 11-09-2011, 02:48 PM   #108
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Re: TV Ratings Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rendle View Post
ABC
CBS
FOX
NBC
That's what I think as well - although it's pretty close between CBS/ABC imo. I think one of the nice stories for CBS is the success of their Monday night comedy block. It's always been strong, but even HIMYM has improved to its' series best ratings.

I think ABC though, long-term, has established some great building blocks. They've had a very nice batting average (probably historically at a high for Networks in general) of successful new series launch this fall.
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Old 11-09-2011, 02:50 PM   #109
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Re: TV Ratings Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by nunnehi View Post
Do you mean new shows, or old shows?

I would rank it, for new shows:

1. ABC
2. CBS
3. FOX
4. NBC

For all shows, for me:

1. CBS
2. NBC
3. ABC
4. FOX

My rankings are only for scripted TV I watch, and probably more based on quality than ratings.

If it's just ratings we're talking about, overall, it's clearly:

1. CBS
2. ABC
3. FOX
4. NBC
Nunn - sorry didn't clarify - I just meant overall fall launch rankings (New Series/Old Series/Positioning for the Future).
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Old 11-09-2011, 02:51 PM   #110
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Re: TV Ratings Discussion

Yeah, gave ABC the edge because they have just as many holes as NBC but that nevers gets talked about because they do have a few legit hits.

Launching Once Upon A Time, Suburgatory, Last Man Standing, and Revenge is huge for them.
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Old 11-09-2011, 02:54 PM   #111
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Re: TV Ratings Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aloysius View Post
Nunn - sorry didn't clarify - I just meant overall fall launch rankings (New Series/Old Series/Positioning for the Future).
In that case, I think it's:

ABC
CBS
NBC
FOX

I agree that ABC and CBS are close. The problem with ABC's lineup, in general, is that it's heavily serialized, which could spell future disaster, if things go off track.

CBS is way too hard on new shows, in general, and I find it nuts that Person of Interest is considered a bubble show. Their whole line up is relatively solid, for the future, if they would just start taking CSI's off the air. As long as POI stays, I'm cool with them.
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Old 11-09-2011, 02:59 PM   #112
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Re: TV Ratings Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rendle View Post
Yeah, gave ABC the edge because they have just as many holes as NBC but that nevers gets talked about because they do have a few legit hits.

Launching Once Upon A Time, Suburgatory, Last Man Standing, and Revenge is huge for them.
Also The Middle, Modern Family have all improved on solid numbers from last season. And my understanding is they have some nice mid-seasons ready to go. It's been a good start for ABC - and solid point about "holes" they needed to fill coming into this launch - Grey's/Desperate are obviously long in the tooth, and the Network needed some hits to stay competitive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nunnehi View Post
In that case, I think it's:

ABC
CBS
NBC
FOX

I agree that ABC and CBS are close. The problem with ABC's lineup, in general, is that it's heavily serialized, which could spell future disaster, if things go off track.
That's a good point (Revenge being the primary example of this - what will a Season 2 look like?)

Quote:
CBS is way too hard on new shows, in general, and I find it nuts that Person of Interest is considered a bubble show. Their whole line up is relatively solid, for the future, if they would just start taking CSI's off the air. As long as POI stays, I'm cool with them.
CBS is just good at what they do, I'm always impressed by their ratings stability and savvy in launching new shows and maintaining their audiences. It's not an easy feat.
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Old 11-09-2011, 03:08 PM   #113
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Re: TV Ratings Discussion

It doesn't hurt that CBS doesn't have a real VOD presence, or even a strong internet presence, either. Those, alone, keep ratings strong, and often force people to make difficult choices in regards to DVR recordings.
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Old 11-09-2011, 03:12 PM   #114
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Re: TV Ratings Discussion

Overall
1. CBS
2. ABC
3. FOX
4. NBC



New Series

(cancellations in red)

I struggled between CBS and ABC at first but ABC has the one cancellation and Pan Am is struggling and expensive to produce.

I had NBC in third until I remembered X-Factor. Also NBC's positives aren't that great. Grimm is running about 2.0 and that's their best new show. Also their Cons are soul crushing.

1. CBS
Pro - 2 Broke Girls is huge, Person of Interest and Unforgettable are doing fine.
Con - A Gifted Man

2. ABC

Pro - Once Upon a Time, Suburgatory, Revenge and Last Man Standing
Con - Charlie's Angels, Pan Am and Man Up! (sorry fsoyars)

3. FOX

Pro - New Girl, X-Factor
Con - Terra Nova - fading fast after a strong start. Also huge production costs.

4. NBC
Pro - Grimm and maybe Whitney (started strong but slipping)
Con - Up All Night, Prime Suspect, Rock Centre, The Playboy Club and Free Agents
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Old 11-09-2011, 03:18 PM   #115
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Re: TV Ratings Discussion

POI and Unforgettable are not considered to be fine, and I think Unforgettable is getting canceled after this season. A Gifted Man is surely getting canceled.

Up All Night is certainly getting renewed, unless an absolute disaster happens by the end of the season.
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Old 11-09-2011, 03:45 PM   #116
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Re: TV Ratings Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by nunnehi View Post

Up All Night is certainly getting renewed, unless an absolute disaster happens by the end of the season.
I never claimed Up All Night was going to be canceled. Only moved them to the Con side to reflect its low ratings.

It's interesting that TV By the Numbers has both Persons of Interest and Unforgettable as bubble shows. Their ratings, especially PoI, would be considered a minor success at most other networks (and a smash hit at NBC)

Personally I find both shows completely forgettable so it doesn't matter - and this is coming from a guy who could watch Poppy Montgomery just smile and read a phone book for an hour.
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Old 11-09-2011, 03:49 PM   #117
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Quote:
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[I had NBC in third until I remembered X-Factor. Also NBC's positives aren't that great. Grimm is running about 2.0 and that's their best new show. Also their Cons are soul crushing.
I was surprised that nunn (I believe) didn't have NBC 4th.

FOX has had a pretty solid fall launch. And MLB sort of screws with their launch schedule, a challenge they must overcome every year.

I think because of the outsized expectations people had for X-Factor, it gets lost that it's actually doing quite well. And when you account for the fact that FOX has less hours of Prime than the other Networks, and X-Factor runs twice a week, it's a decent % of the schedule and a good story for them. I was talking to a FOX sales guy the other day and he said "I'll take disappointment at X-Factor levels anyday!"
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Old 11-09-2011, 04:10 PM   #118
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Re: TV Ratings Discussion

Quote:
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Their whole line up is relatively solid, for the future, if they would just start taking CSI's off the air.
Don't hold your breath. Even though their ratings have tapered off the CSI franchise is the most watched series in the world.

Al - can you comment on how a strong worldwide viewership impacts a show that doesn't necessarily pull in great domestic ratings? (i.e. CSI Miami and New York)

Just some food for thought and context below.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

From June 2010
"CSI: CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION and its spinoff series, CSI: MIAMI and CSI: NY, have created a global television franchise with all three series licensed in more than 200 markets. "

"CSI was honored Thursday (June 10) with the Monte Carlo TV Festival's International Television Audience Award for drama series -- which means it's the most-watched TV series in the world. Combining ratings from a survey of 68 countries, the crime drama was seen by 73.8 million viewers worldwide.

"CSI" beat out last year's winner, "House," to win the award for the third time; it previously took the honor in 2007 and '08. Spinoff "CSI: Miami" won in 2006."
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Old 11-09-2011, 04:12 PM   #119
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The reason I ranked FOX 4th is because everything has delivered below expectations. X Factor was supposed to be huge, and Terra Nova had through the roof expectations. The only new hit, that I can see, is New Girl, which they are doing a pretty big disservice to it, by putting it on an extended hiatus, right after it began. Yes, I know TWS is a problem, but 4 weeks off is pretty extreme, for a hit show.

House has no longevity, and is likely done at the end of the season. I think the interesting points to note for FOX are going to be the spring launches or mid-season launches (Alcatraz, whenever that comes out, and the Bones spinoff).

Some of my favorite shows are on NBC, so I can't rank it below FOX, as almost none of my favorite shows are on FOX (they canceled all of my favorite shows on it, last season).

With all of those factors considered, it's why I ranked FOX last, even though, when factoring in new shows (I don't think Up All Night or Whitney is worth watch, though I continue with Up All Night), NBC is definitely right there with them (outside of Grimm, which I think needs to move, yesterday).
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Old 11-09-2011, 04:22 PM   #120
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Wires, I think Person of Interest is a great show (once you suspend your disbelief), and that Unforgettable is just a relatively standard police procedural, average in almost every way. I don't, at all, share your affection for Poppy, and I think, in many ways, she hurts the show. I also think that Unforgettable is almost the nice person version of Prime Suspect, superior in every way to Prime Suspect, especially casting and tone.

Person of Interest is absolutely not forgettable, to me, and I will be genuinely sad if it goes.

Al can answer better about CSI, but a lot of what I've heard is that CBS is a syndication warehouse. Their only goal is to get shows into syndication, and if your premise isn't able to be easily sold into syndication, you're in trouble, on that network. POI seems like an easy syndication sale to me, and Unforgettable seems like a really tough sell.

A lot of why the CSIs stay on the air is due to their syndication deals, from what I've heard. As long as the money is in something's favor (can't remember what), the shows will stay. It still is likely that one of those is going this year, most likely the lowest rated CSI: Miami.

I personally wish the networks would open up Saturday nights, again, which would most benefit FOX, due to their low amount of weekly programming hours, but I guess that's probably a pipe dream.
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Old 11-09-2011, 04:33 PM   #121
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Re: TV Ratings Discussion

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Originally Posted by Wires View Post
Al - can you comment on how a strong worldwide viewership impacts a show that doesn't necessarily pull in great domestic ratings? (i.e. CSI Miami and New York)

Just some food for thought and context below.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

From June 2010
"CSI: CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION and its spinoff series, CSI: MIAMI and CSI: NY, have created a global television franchise with all three series licensed in more than 200 markets. "

"CSI was honored Thursday (June 10) with the Monte Carlo TV Festival's International Television Audience Award for drama series -- which means it's the most-watched TV series in the world. Combining ratings from a survey of 68 countries, the crime drama was seen by 73.8 million viewers worldwide.

"CSI" beat out last year's winner, "House," to win the award for the third time; it previously took the honor in 2007 and '08. Spinoff "CSI: Miami" won in 2006."
To add to what Nunn said (and there's some good discussion, randomly, in the Community thread in OOTV about syndication if you wanted to check it out):

As the CSI franchise is produce by CBS Studios, the parent CBS Corp has an interest in both 1) the Network economics (how the ratings are and ad revenues look) and 2) the Studio economics - all domestic and internatinoal syndication to TV outlets, and other digital distribution such as Hulu, Netflix etc.

So it's just a simple matter of the math. If producing additional episodes of any of the CSI series equals a net positive for CBS Corp, they'll keep going. The formula would be:

(Domestic TV Ad Revenues + International Syndication Revenues + Domestic Syndication Revenues + Digital Platform Revenues) - (Marketing + Distribution + Production Costs) > 0, they'll look to produce more episodes.

Given the large demand for CSI in non-US territories, I would guess the international syndication revenues are at this point higher than domestic syndication revenues.

Caveat to the above: in the formula noted, if the CSI economics are generating a profit, but not a particularly large one - there is opportunity cost to CBS in not launching new shows on their valuable, limited U.S. Prime real estate. So it's possible the CSI franchise could still be slightly profitable, but it's better in the long run to shut it down. Also of course, talent issues.
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Old 11-09-2011, 04:36 PM   #122
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Al can answer better about CSI, but a lot of what I've heard is that CBS is a syndication warehouse. Their only goal is to get shows into syndication, and if your premise isn't able to be easily sold into syndication, you're in trouble, on that network. POI seems like an easy syndication sale to me, and Unforgettable seems like a really tough sell.
To add a bit to this - it is absolutely every Network/Studio's desire to get every show into syndication. TV is a homerun model - if you don't start making monies in syndication with a hit, your economics are very challenged. Ad monies is not enough.

I think what you might be alluding to is that procedural/self-contained series (like a CSI) tend to sell better into syndication than serialized series (like say Desperate Housewives). Which makes sense. And of course CBS produces I believe the most procedural series now that the L&O franchise has taken a hit.
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Old 11-09-2011, 04:45 PM   #123
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I'm not sure how relevant it is in adding to the discussion, but CBS really, in my opinion, benefits from having shows on the air for a long time. That's because it allows them to REALLY develop all of their new shows, which is why I think their new shows tend to be among the most solid to hit air. Regardless of whether you like POI or Unforgettable, those shows aren't "finding their way". They are fully formed, and know pretty much exactly what they are.

NBC's development is a joke, and they seem to re-tool on the fly on every new series they do. Even the great Parks and Recreation has a pretty substantial difference to today's version in the early episodes of season 1. You know they hit their stride when Ron Swanson is completely recognizable, which I believe was episode 4 of the series.

ABC appears to make it up as they go along. They like the way their shows seem to be, at the outset, and then just seem to re-adjust the shows based on audience response. I think Body of Proof is their worst show, that I've seen (outside of the canceled Charlie's Angels), and it just seems like they're saying, "here, let's try this, let's try that", but not getting it anywhere near being a cohesive show. The most promise came in last week's episode, when the audience was finally faced with "possibility" of major casting upheaval, which I strongly support.

FOX seems to do a pretty good development cycle on their scripted shows, but they also seem to fight a lot over direction with the Creators of the shows (House is a prime example of that). They also don't stick with good scripted TV long enough, don't launch it in ways it can succeed, etc., and hold new shows up to the impossibly high standard of AI.

Having a well developed show that knows exactly what it is, goes a long way towards finding an audience quickly. It's part of what's strange about 2 Broke Girls. It's really well developed, but it's not funny. Regardless, it still has the largest audience of any new show on TV.

For sitcoms, I generally give every new one I watch four episodes, and if it still feels like it's fumbling around for what it's going to be, I drop it, if it doesn't show a lot of potential. These days, it seems like you need to give every show 6 episodes to find out if you would like it. I think we're coming up on episode 6 of Terra Nova, and it's still not there, yet.
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Old 11-09-2011, 04:48 PM   #124
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To add a bit to this - it is absolutely every Network/Studio's desire to get every show into syndication. TV is a homerun model - if you don't start making monies in syndication with a hit, your economics are very challenged. Ad monies is not enough.

I think what you might be alluding to is that procedural/self-contained series (like a CSI) tend to sell better into syndication than serialized series (like say Desperate Housewives). Which makes sense. And of course CBS produces I believe the most procedural series now that the L&O franchise has taken a hit.
I absolutely agree, but the point I was trying to make is that CBS seems to have solved the "getting shows into syndication" model, and nearly every show on their schedule, with good prospects gets there, or is there.

If they don't think it has good prospects (I've heard that The Good Wife has been an extremely tough sell on the syndication market) for syndication, they are more likely to dump it, even with solid ratings.
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Old 11-09-2011, 04:48 PM   #125
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Re: TV Ratings Discussion

al , how much does it cost to run an ad on a major network during primetime? lets say like a show like the new girl? ( i knew there are varying factors , but a general ballpark) ...

ive always wondered about this but there are not many resources out there, seems like most networks are hush,hush about how much they charge for ads .
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Old 11-09-2011, 04:56 PM   #126
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al , how much does it cost to run an ad on a major network during primetime? lets say like a show like the new girl? ( i knew there are varying factors , but a general ballpark) ...

ive always wondered about this but there are not many resources out there, seems like most networks are hush,hush about how much they charge for ads .
AdAge is a magazine that gives estimates, think Broadcasting & Cable will do it as well - check out those trade mags at some point if you want fine-tuned numbers.

I can give you ball park but first I'll explain how it sells: an advertiser pays a CPM, or cost per thousand eyeballs for a 30 second ad in Prime. That's what gets negotiated per show, and that can go up or down based on a lot of factors (is the audience of the show college educated, wealthy, more male etc) - once the CPM is negotiated the total price can be determined. Higher ratings, higher eyeball total, higher price.

So for a Network ad (which is aired simultaneously across the entire country) - for crappy rated series in Primetime (think RockCenter, repeats of scripted) it can be maybe $50k per ad - hit shows can exceed $200k. Of course the Super Bowl ad is another benchmark for price.

You can also buy Local ads in primetime (the ads run by local TV stations that aren't run nationwide, only in their market per FCC designatino): you can back into the cost by knowing how much that market hits as a % of the country. So if you wanted to buy a local ad in say the New York market (which is like 7% of the country), you can get a ballpark estimate of the price that way.
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Old 11-09-2011, 05:04 PM   #127
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Re: TV Ratings Discussion

Al, there's been alot of talk about the number of episodes needed for syndication and how that 100 episode level is fairly important.

Last year in April before the first season was over TNT bought the syndication rights to Hawaii 5-0 and said they would start airing the show in 2014. Is this rare? Was it only because it's an obvious fit for CBS to keep on the air 5+ years?
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Old 11-09-2011, 05:06 PM   #128
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Re: TV Ratings Discussion

Re: Man Up, it's a long shot to stick around at this point. We finished the 13 episode order last Friday. They ordered two more scripts, one of which I'm currently working on from home, but that doesn't really mean much. I don't think these scripts will ever see the light of day. My guess is they'll finish airing the 13 and unless, for some completely unforeseen reason, there's an uptick in the ratings, that will be the end of it. If it dives really badly, it's possible they could just pull before even finishing the 13 or maybe burn if off at some other time slot.
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Old 11-09-2011, 05:07 PM   #129
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Rendle, fyi, the new magic number for syndication is 88.
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Old 11-09-2011, 05:13 PM   #130
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Al, there's been alot of talk about the number of episodes needed for syndication and how that 100 episode level is fairly important.

Last year in April before the first season was over TNT bought the syndication rights to Hawaii 5-0 and said they would start airing the show in 2014. Is this rare? Was it only because it's an obvious fit for CBS to keep on the air 5+ years?
Actually, you should check out that Community thread, lots of stuff written about this dynamic.

But ultimately, the number (I haven't run series level economics in a while, and the market has changed over the past couple years, but probably not so much that I'm very wrong) was more like 80 episodes projection - if it got produced to that level - that was enough for a TV station or Cable Network to "strip" the programming (run it M-F for X number of weeks).

However, the marketplace is changing, and each negotiation is completely dependent on the Cable Network, TV station, or other syndicator's (like Netflix's) needs. For example, Netflix will buy just 1 season of a series as they are just looking for more and more originall produced product.

So in the case of TNT for this Hawaii 5-0 deal:

From a TNT perspective: they are taking the risk that they won't get enough episodes of Hawaii 5-0 to properly "strip", but would still have at least a couple seasons of product to air. And likely, by getting the rights early in Hawaii 5-0's life, they paid a cheaper price than they would if it were a huge hit 4 years out.

From a CBS perspective: if anything, selling earlier (after Season 1) into syndication suggests they don't have a ton of faith it will be a huge hit down the road. The preferred way to sell any product of course is at peak market value - usually a hit show's ratings will rise for the first 3 years, and level down.

So to more broadly answer your question - if a Cable Network or TV station needs product to "strip", that 80 episode target is important. Otherwise, it's deal by deal.
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Old 11-09-2011, 05:14 PM   #131
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ohhhh yea I watched community and it went up
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Old 11-14-2011, 04:07 PM   #132
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Wow. CBS doesn't mess around. Apparently they've cut their season order of Rules of Engagement from 18 to 13 episodes. RoA posted a 3.5/9 (A18-49) with 11.57m total viewers. It was the second most viewed show across all networks last Thursday.

In contrast NBC is floundering (18-49 adjusted):

Community
1.5/4 3.49m

Parks & Recreation
1.8/5 3.66m

The Office
3.0/7 5.96m

Whitney
2.1/5 4.28m

If NBC replaced Community with 2 new sitcoms this week with minimum promotion the numbers probably wouldn't be any worse.
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Old 11-14-2011, 04:18 PM   #133
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It has a huge drop from its lead in, every week, which is probably why CBS doesn't care to let it go in the 18 episode order. I seem to remember a second reason behind that episode order cut, but I can't remember what it is, right now.

I think the other reason is that they needed to make room for some Rob Schneider show that will probably get canceled quickly, or something...

Last edited by nunnehi; 11-14-2011 at 04:22 PM. Reason: 2nd reason
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Old 11-14-2011, 04:29 PM   #134
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Ha, was just going to post about the Rob Schneider show. I remember back at upfronts in May the only comedies they were adding were Two Broke Girls and How To Be A Gentleman but then they did add the Schneider show later.

http://www.aoltv.com/2011/09/27/cbs-...neider-sitcom/
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Old 11-14-2011, 04:33 PM   #135
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I like Riva, so I'll give it a look, when it comes on.

I think How To Be A Gentleman only aired 3 episodes, 4 max. It got destroyed in the one Saturday episode they gave it.
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Old 11-16-2011, 10:02 PM   #136
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Re: TV Ratings Discussion

If I DVR a channel manually for like an hour or two instead of DVRing each show individually, does that hurt its DVR ratings?
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Old 11-16-2011, 10:07 PM   #137
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If I DVR a channel manually for like an hour or two instead of DVRing each show individually, does that hurt its DVR ratings?

If you don't have a Nielson box it doesn't matter if you DVR in 1 minute intervals.
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Old 11-16-2011, 11:01 PM   #138
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If I DVR a channel manually for like an hour or two instead of DVRing each show individually, does that hurt its DVR ratings?
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If you don't have a Nielson box it doesn't matter if you DVR in 1 minute intervals.
Also, Nielsen measures DVR playback - so the manual vs. show DVR setting would make no difference if you happened to be in a Nielsen home.
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Old 11-17-2011, 07:32 PM   #139
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Harry's Law had a brutal 1.1 last night. That's definitely lowest ratings this show has ever seen. It's certainly going to get canceled, and NBC probably can't wait to move it to Sundays. I don't really get why people aren't watching it, unless they just hated the previous episode, and don't want it to degenerate to that kind of political preaching.

It's certainly one of the best sarcamas (sarcastic drama) on NBC, but it's just never found a young audience. They removed the best looking cast member (Brittany Snow), which assures it of never getting a younger audience.
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Old 11-17-2011, 08:03 PM   #140
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Re: TV Ratings Discussion

To all who made lists of the big 4, how is FOX ever 3rd?

For them this season hasn't been great so far but their A18-49 ratings are still waayyyyy ahead of ABC and it will take more than one mediocre season to change that. ABC are solid, and have had a pretty good start this season but despite that good start, they are still well behind FOX.

If on the other hand you were just rating on how good the season has been to each individual network irrespective of how the other networks are doing, then I agree with the CBS>ABC>FOX>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>NBC consensus.
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Old 11-17-2011, 08:08 PM   #141
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I think one of the metrics Al wanted us to use was the future. FOX's shows are not lining up well, for the future, while a good portion of ABC's new shows will definitely make it to next season, which is a major reason why FOX, for me, deserves to be third.
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Old 12-01-2011, 01:10 PM   #142
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Last night, I Hate My Teenage Daughter premiered on FOX. While the ratings are "okay", I think they spell disaster for the show. A 2.8 in the 18-49 and 6.84 million viewers for its premiere means it's likely done. When you factor in that it was against mostly reruns, that's a problem. Did anyone watch the show, and have any comments?

Interestingly, both Harry's Law and SVU had significant upticks, due to the other networks being in reruns. There's at least a small chance that Harry's Law ratings will improve once it moves to Sundays. It's been awhile since either of those shows have approached 10 million overall viewers. I think Harry's law has been averaging around a 1.2 all season (1.4 last night), and SVU has been averaging around a 2.0 (2.2 last night).
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Old 12-07-2011, 02:59 AM   #143
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Re: TV Ratings Discussion

There was a quick discussion about Nielsen and ratings (a Nielsen user writes in on how they track) on the recent After Dark ep of the SlashFilm's Podcast.

http://slashfilm.com/filmcast/?p=408

Its near the end of the Podcast.
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Old 01-13-2012, 05:27 PM   #144
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Re: TV Ratings Discussion

Seems like a good time to revive this thread now that the winter season is in full swing.

30 Rock premiered to terrible numbers (1.8/5) last night while Rob crushed (4.1/11). P&R only brought in a 1.9 as well. I'm only half joking when I say this can't be good for the future of network sitcoms.

If the Communities, P&Rs and 30 Rocks struggle to bring in good ratings then it only makes sense for NBC to bring back the laugh track full force and stock up on Chuck Lorre clones. They suck but they do bring in the $$.

And holy hell, The Firm tanked hard (1.0/3). NBC just cannot buy a winner.
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Old 01-13-2012, 05:33 PM   #145
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NBC's low ratings bar is good for us. All of those shows would have been canceled on any other network, and I don't think NBC has any of the kind of plans to make the kind of sitcoms CBS makes. They want to do the whole Whitney style direction, which is a very bad move (cue me hoping hard for the failure of Whitney and Chelsea, next week).

Also, no one's going to make much noise about it, but Up All Night is in real trouble. It premiered very poorly in the new time slot, based on what I think were much higher expectations. A 2.0 is decent for an NBC comedy, but it has The Office lead in, and dropped .9 from it, something that Whitney really wasn't doing in that slot.

Another edit is just this note about The Finder:

Bones ratings:

2.4 in the 18-49 demo
8.63 million overall viewers

The Finder ratings:

1.7 in the 18-49 demo
5.45 million overall viewers

Wow, those are bad numbers for a spinoff, being led in by its brother. It's not often you can say a spinoff lost 3.18 million viewers from its lead in that it was spun off from. This show has to be considered to be on life support, unless it's moving somewhere else.

Last edited by nunnehi; 01-13-2012 at 05:46 PM.
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Old 01-13-2012, 10:50 PM   #146
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Seems like a good time to revive this thread now that the winter season is in full swing.

30 Rock premiered to terrible numbers (1.8/5) last night while Rob crushed (4.1/11). P&R only brought in a 1.9 as well. I'm only half joking when I say this can't be good for the future of network sitcoms.

If the Communities, P&Rs and 30 Rocks struggle to bring in good ratings then it only makes sense for NBC to bring back the laugh track full force and stock up on Chuck Lorre clones. They suck but they do bring in the $$.
This brings up what I think is a somewhat interesting point: ratings differential between Single Cam and Multi-Cam sitcoms... (thought of this as I believe every Chuck Lorre sitcom/clone is a traditional multi-cam)....

It'd be interesting to see what the numbers look like for say the past decade. I'm trying to think of the first single cam that was very popular, maybe Malcolm in the Middle? (It premiered in 2000.)

I didn't think Single Cam made much difference anymore in ratings (ie, hurt them), as I figured by now the American public was very used to seeing it. But who knows maybe not? FWIW, and counter to my point - Modern Family is the most popular sitcom on TV and of course Single Cam.

I think the specific weakness for 30 Rock/Community is that they are very narrow (but wow, pretty shocked at 30 Rock's premiere doing so poorly), and P&R suffers by proximity in that NBC block.
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Old 01-13-2012, 11:04 PM   #147
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While I don't disagree with the finders rating being low, I don't exactly think that it's fair to call it a spinoff since the characters were in one or two episodes (I think) and the premise is not really that similar either. Maybe I'm wrong in my interpretation of a spinoff.

That said, I liked the show - but I sort of felt like I was watching The Mentalist.
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Old 01-13-2012, 11:42 PM   #148
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Spinoffs can be defined very loosely. If there was ever a character crossover, it can be considered a spinoff. FOX definitely considers this a spinoff, and marketed it as a spinoff, albeit poorly.
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Old 01-13-2012, 11:46 PM   #149
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I'm trying to think of the first single cam that was very popular, maybe Malcolm in the Middle? (It premiered in 2000.)

For modern day, I think Malcolm in the Middle is considered the defining single camera sitcom, but The Wonder Years was definitely a single camera sitcom (non-traditional sitcom, but definitely still a sitcom), long before anyone was doing that, if I am not mistaken, and it was extremely popular. I think Parker Lewis Can't Lose was also a single camera sitcom, though probably not very popular. There were a few in the 90s, but my memory is escaping me right now.

I also don't think whether a sitcom is single cam or multi-cam makes any difference to the average consumer. They have to be drawn in somehow, and no one pushes their shows harder than CBS, and it has a great outlet to do so, NFL football. As you said yourself, all of the NBC comedies are niche shows, that don't have broad appeal. The humor isn't low brow on any of them, and people just like to laugh at stupid stuff. They also probably don't want to have to pay close attention, either.
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Old 01-14-2012, 12:40 AM   #150
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Join Date: May 2011
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Re: TV Ratings Discussion

Al, wikipedia has a list of supposedly every single camera sitcom in TV history. It's a lot more extensive than I remember, and there were lots of popular ones prior to 1980. The main difference is the lack of a laugh track, between then and now. It's a pretty interesting list, though I feel at least some of the shows were doing both multi and single cam shooting that are on the list, going from memory. Malcolm in the Middle isn't even on their list, which I find to be interesting. LOLwikipedia, as usual.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ation_comedies
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