Is Viserys supposed to be 16 in the show? Dany is his younger sister, that means we'd have nudity of someone who in-show is supposed to be like 14.

In any case, "let's import some guy I've never met from across the Narrow Sea to have a giant war and retake the throne" is a flat out ******ed plan for dealing with the problems with Robert's reign if you are trying to help the common folk. Wanting a Targ on the throne at any cost makes a ton more sense.

There is a legitimate problem that they can't just throw anyone up there. They need to have some claim and/or be backed by an army to do it.

What's more, this specific thing (war is worse for the people than anything else) is one of the overarching themes of the whole series!

Yeah, although that's been de-emphasized quite a bit in the show and will continue to be. It looks like Dany's being set up as a full on hero, while in the books we see that, e.g., her conquest of Meereen isn't necessarily that awesome for the people. In the books I expect the idea that Dany has a "right" to wage war in Westeros to be questioned at some point, while in the show it probably won't be. I think that's what Lemongate is going to relate to (not sure how obsessive the fandom is ITT, do people know what I mean when I say Lemongate?)

Yes. It's what happens when there's too much time between books. Grrm has already shown he's not THAT careful with details and people shouldn't read too much into stuff like this.

This is especially true for book 1.

No, Lemongate is definitely a thing, both parts of it (Dany remembering the lemon tree and the fact that there's no citrus in Braavos, or indeed any trees) are carefully mentioned several times through the books. GRRM also confirmed that something is up with it, a fan asked him:

Martin's reply:

so....what does that reveal? that she remembers Westeros? So what?

She's not supposed to have ever been to Westeros. The story Dany is told of her childhood is that she was born on Dragonstone during a great storm, and that as a baby she was smuggled to Braavos, where she and Viserys lived until she was five. Her memory of a lemon tree apparently demonstrates that this story is wrong or incomplete.

As to what this means, we don't know, other than that there's something about Dany's past yet to be revealed. One possibility is that she is not really a Targaryen. Dany assumes throughout the series that she has the birthright to conquer Westeros, it's one of the cornerstones of her identity. Discovering that this is not true would require her to completely rebuild herself. Self identity is one of the major themes of the series, virtually every character struggles with it in some way (most obviously, Arya, Jon, Jaime, Tyrion, Brienne, Sansa but there are many others). A lot of people think that is super unlikely though, there are other possibilities and it could turn out to be something pretty minor.

There are a few other oddities around Dany's origin story, but they're much more tinfoilish than the clearly deliberate Lemongate. One thing is that when they're prepping her for Drogo, Illyrio sometimes talks like he might have his doubts that she's the genuine article, for instance:

This is slightly odd, because if she's a Targaryen, of course she looks Valyrian. Illyrio is like "dude don't worry, she looks obviously Valyrian, it's very convincing. Er... and I mean, she's the daughter of the king, of course". It's not at all conclusive of course but there are several spots like that where things feel a bit off. Elsewhere Illyrio talks about "years of planning" to marry Dany to Drogo, even though he's only supposed to have met Dany 6 months ago.

If you want to get into the weeds on Lemongate, the HAY GUYS LEMON TREES DON'T GROW IN BRAAVOS, MORESO IN DORNE quotes from the books are in an FAQ here.

That FAQ blathers on a bit about unrelated and frequently stupid stuff, btw. Just ignore anything that isn't directly discussing Lemongate.

Ah I thought it was a piece of the evidence for R + L = D which seems pretty ridiculous to me.

Interesting that GRRM confirmed that will play a part, I wonder if that was his original intent or not.

I don't think they're after her anymore. The fight with the terminator was the end of the feud.

I don't think this works, as she is immune to fire.

jon got burned, right? way back in season 1 he got burned when he saved mormont and killed those white walkers, right?

Yeah that's addressed in the faq, they think that if Daeny is from another house it's an old Valyrian house that still has the ability to hatch eggs and that the Targs lost that ability a long time ago.

Now that seems off for a number of reasons too but it covers the "only targs can do this" angle.

Not immune. She's resistant. Quotes from GRRM:

The hatching of the dragons and Dany's survival of the fire is, like all magic in ASOIAF/GOT, mystical and unexplained. Worth pointing out though that it happens in the same fire in which Dany burns Mirri Maz Dur alive. We know that blood magic/sacrifice is a thing in the series, so it may have been that which enabled the dragons to hatch rather than Dany's lineage. Remember Mirri keeps repeating "only death can pay for life".

R+L=D is definitely stupid imo. R+A=D is in the realms of possibility, or Dany may not be a Targ at all, or Lemongate might actually turn out to be pretty inconsequential... but it's been carefully set up as this very subtle mystery, so I tend to think the payoff will be something of consequence. I also think that at some point Dany's whole "I am the rightful queen, yay waging war on another continent!" thing has to be called into question since it runs counter to the moral theme of the series. I think these two things that have to happen will probably turn out to be related somehow. However, I don't think any of it will be in the show. Lemongate hasn't been set up at all and the show simply does not have time to engage in navel-gazing about "birthrights" or for Dany to have some crisis of confidence.

GRRM definitely deliberately puts foreshadowing and hints in the books that may turn out to be nothing. For instance whether Tyrion, Cersei and Jaime are actually Tywin's children or bastards of the Mad King. There are definitely hints dropped, pretty good ones, about all three, but I think in reality all three are probably Tywin's. It just adds mystery to the series, contributes to the theme of uncertain personal identity running through the books, and keeps GRRM's options open, as he is pretty fluid with the story as he writes.

I actually loved the Varys/Dany scene a lot, because it seemed to work on multiple levels.

Varys is obviously lying to Dany's face because he thinks she is an idiot that is easily manipulated, and Dany is just pushing him and playing with the boundaries without really caring too much about his response beyond how it plays in the room.


Then I realise the show is being written by ******s now and Varys probably does just support the common man.

Hmm. In the show, she gets into a bath that's too hot for normal people when she's introduced. She also burns down the dothraki hall and survives. I don't think this subtlety in her immunity has survived the transition to the show.

Yeah she also literally says "He was no true dragon. Fire cannot kill a dragon" after Viserys gets his golden crown. As someone pointed out though, Jon Snow gets burnt - although he is only a Targ bastard, as far as we know. Anyway, yeah, the show has not been very clear on what the rules are. I don't think it matters for Dany birth conspiracy theories, because like I said, I don't expect any of that to be in the show. I guess you could argue that GRRM would have vetoed those scenes if he knew Dany wasn't a real Targ, although she's going to have Valyrian blood no matter what.

I had completely forgot about the Dothraki hall.

I was under the impression that only some Targs had it, so it doesn't rule anyone out if they can get burnt. So... Has Tyrion been burnt?

naw grrm has specifically said dany isnt immune to fire but yadda-yadda-yadda-i-wish-i-didnt-make-her-immune-to-fire

Yeah constantly by just about everyone, even Tywin's last words were a burn. He seems to have developed some immunity to it but definitely not full immunity.

Lemongate is not a thing bc citrus doesn't grow in braavos except for in the courts of the rich, which is were Dany was.

GRRM may have goofed and then clarified in AFFC

Top comment in the faq. Makes a lot of sense but it's a lot of effort for grrm for such a tiny reveal.

sometimes people have false memories. when i was a kid i swear to god i had a memory of being attacked by lions in golden gate park. still to this day, i remember it. one lion bit me in the ass. i thought it was real until i was about 10 and i realized that even though i remember it, it couldn't have happened.

maybe im a targaryen. i did get burned, but it was a long time ago.