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Playing Bottom Boat OOP in Multi-Way Pots Playing Bottom Boat OOP in Multi-Way Pots

01-24-2013 , 05:26 PM
This doesn't relate to a specific hand, just a general position I find myself in once every few sessions and haven't figured a way to play optimally.

Flop will come J-J-5 and I have 55 w/no re-draw. Betting out helps to thin the field, and any callers you can put squarely on a J or MAYBE an over-pair, but then what? Any subsequent card is a "scare" card and can leave us drawing to a 1-outer. Check-calling seems like a horrible line, as does check-folding. If the pot is big enough a turn bet can sometimes take it down but any call leaves us in an awkward spot on the riv.

Small stacked and in position I don't mind getting it in, but deep-stacked and OOP I still haven't developed a good line.

And no, I don't make a habit of playing small pairs OOP, but AK55ds in early position or just checking from the BB is how I find myself in these spots most often.
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01-25-2013 , 05:21 AM
B/f while stack is large, jam if stack is small. Don't be afraid to fold to aggression, it's a trap hand afterall.
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01-27-2013 , 04:54 AM
If you can get most of your money in on the flop, then I'd say go for it. If stack is deep, then probably c/c (if a c/r can't get it in), and evaluate action on later streets. Most players with naked over trips or making positional bets most likely won't fire again on turn in case they are being trapped. Once the turn is checked through, you can c/c most rivers thus keeping the pot small. This is assuming a HU pot.

In 3 way pots...I'd probably try and get committed at flop by a c/r (eaiser with 3 players), but if stacks are even too deep for this, its probably ok to c/f as a c/c means we must dodge so many bullets, and being OOP means we are giving out massive reverse implied odds if we choose to call the hand down.

Last edited by Quadtwos; 01-27-2013 at 04:56 AM. Reason: typo
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01-27-2013 , 12:38 PM
The under tight is a huge problem when deep stack but can also be very profitable. Typically I avoid small pair hands... the only time I'm really playing 55 is when I have another pair to go with it. Or like AsTs5c5d.

I usually take the lead, betting 1/2 or less of pot. It's a tough situation, especially in a bloated multiway pot.
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01-30-2013 , 04:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmahaFanatical4
the only time I'm really playing 55 is when I have like AsTs5c5d.
Yea because that's one of the best possible 55xx hands... you really annoy me because you speak like you are so confident and such an authority that people probably listen to your advice even though it's often very non-standard (IMO it's just plain terrible but I want to stay open minded) in 90% of your posts. This would seem like I'm just trolling but I think it's necessary to add some red warning lights you your posts.
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01-30-2013 , 05:31 AM
No, the best 55 type hands are like AA55 or KK55 and any double pair hand with 55 in it is pretty good. I reference those prior to that hand with text when I say "with another pair with it". I suppose you could make a case for playing 3455 or 5567 but those hands aren't very good. Generally when I am playing 55 it is because it is with a suited ace (without my fives being that suit) or with another pair. These are really the only good times to be playing a low pair.

There's nothing wrong with criticism but you don't even offer any of that, just sarcasm and an assertion that I'm wrong. If I am wrong then demonstrate how and we'll all be the richer for your input.
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01-30-2013 , 07:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by theclutchyclutch

Small stacked and in position I don't mind getting it in, but deep-stacked and OOP I still haven't developed a good line.
This is a strong reason why hands dominated by 55 (5567 etc) should rarely be played deep oop- the strong part of your hand, the wrap, is being blocked anyways. You will almost always have bottom or middle set/boat. If I had 100BB or less I'd just stack off on the 5JJ unless opponent allowed me to fold with tells or style.

That being said, if you are deep with QQ55 or what not and it comes 5JJ, I think check/call/re-evaluate is good vs. aggro players and 1/4 pot/re-eval vs. bad spewy players would be my typical line

Quote:
Originally Posted by OmahaFanatical4
the only time I'm really playing 55 is when I have another pair to go with it. Or like AsTs5c5d
This hand is just awful /leakplugged
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01-30-2013 , 10:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmahaFanatical4
when I am playing 55 it is because it is with a suited ace (without my fives being that suit)
So you would rather play AsKs55 than AsK55s? (I believe your example was AsTs55) What is your rationale?

I think open forums are great and I have no problem with different viewpoints but it's hinders the forum to just post thoughtless walls of crap all the time.
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01-30-2013 , 02:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoopman20
So you would rather play AsKs55 than AsK55s? (I believe your example was AsTs55) What is your rationale?

I think open forums are great and I have no problem with different viewpoints but it's hinders the forum to just post thoughtless walls of crap all the time.
I think he's read Hwang, and based his rationale on Hwang's view that it is eaiser to flop both a set and the nut FD if the ace is suited away from the pair in AxPP type of hands.
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01-30-2013 , 05:07 PM
^ Nailed it.
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02-04-2013 , 02:17 AM
I dont see what the problem with AsTs5c5h type hand is. It does have a very "hit or miss" flop equity curve so you need to keep that in mind when deciding when to play it but I definitely think its playable. Your basically looking to flop a set + NFD which is a super strong hand (although hard to flop)

Also the example of AsKs55 is the only example where you could argue that AsK55s might be better. Any other AX-PP hand you would prefer the pair not to match the Ace.
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02-04-2013 , 08:22 PM
55KAds and 55TAds are spewy hands when deep/OOP. 5567ds is much better, but still not fantastic when deep/OOP/against good players.

How to play bottom boat (against competent opponents, absent reads)

If you're short-ish:
Get it in/mostly in on the flop, remainder on the turn.

If you're deepish:
Standard Play: c/c, c/c (if heads up), c/f (if heads up, if board not double-paired). Very hard for villain to value bet trips big kicker; or trips bad kicker to 3 barrel.

Mixed with some Fancy Play: bet small/call flop, c/r/f turn or donk/fold turn, c/decide river.

More likely to fold if the cards are close together; more likely to be aggressive if the cards are far apart (3KK).
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