Non-Showdown Winnings - Page 2 - High Stakes Pot Limit Omaha

kutty · 09-22-2009, 02:42 PM

nice graphs dudes- i'm such a nit. Is this possible at 5-10 + where people will be more apt to get it in light?

Halowax · 09-23-2009, 01:56 AM

I assume that even the nits do not assume that this myth about non sd winnings is even remotely applicable to HUPLO.

WRR1986 · 09-23-2009, 06:14 AM

to me it looked like a positive non-sd line to me

chinz · 11-01-2009, 10:18 AM

http://www.pokerisivut.com/forum/dow...4971&mode=view

Hope the link works. This guy is 12+ tabling midstakes, so it's possible even when mass-multitabling.

EDIT:
FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUU sry for bump... I thought I was on page 2 but it was more like 2 mirrion.

sharpmouth58 · 11-01-2009, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bogglor

If there's a graph like that then no, I haven't seen it. Is it theoretically possible? I suppose so, if you table select and only play against nits or something, or if you have an extremely aggro style and are a supreme hand reader / finest bluffer the world has ever known. I just don't think that it's probable that unless conditions are perfect, you can get through all of those times you correctly called a draw but missed or had to fold on a later street because your hand was obviously no longer good.

It's a question that people are overly concerned with and it gets asked zillions of times. How do I raise my red line! People come from NL holdem and say mmmmmmmmmmaaaaaaannnnnnnnn I'm losing a lot in non-SD pots, WUT DO I DO?!?! Like there's some magic secret that they're missing.

I guess its theoretically possible for everyone to lose money in poker because of the rake.... but isn't poker a zero sum game? So I think if poker is a zero sum game and I lose a dollar, that has to be balanced. I'm going to give an equation to model the situation 0 = -1 + 1 (the -1 is the dollar I lose, the +1 is the dollar someone else gains)

**ike** · 11-01-2009, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krmont22

for every 1 dollar lost at non-sd, someone else is winning it

this is only true in heads up pots, right? any time 3 or more players put money into the pot and then 2 of them go to showdown there is non-sd money lost and no non-sd money won. am i missing something?

Peligro! · 11-01-2009, 07:18 PM

you are right ike. krmont's post is sort of correct but essentially misleading.

Stinger88 · 11-02-2009, 03:09 AM

my non-SD is very negative over a very winning sample so I really doubt it's possible, mainly because of scenarios like ike mentioned

krmont22 · 11-02-2009, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ike

this is only true in heads up pots, right? any time 3 or more players put money into the pot and then 2 of them go to showdown there is non-sd money lost and no non-sd money won. am i missing something?

yes, which means that if you sum everyone's non-sd line it goes down, but there are plenty of people with long term positive red lines nonetheless.

Scar18 · 11-02-2009, 06:42 AM

its definitely possible. but i believe a consistently upward trending (not break-even) non-sd winnings line in 5-6 handed mid-stakes represents more of a leak than a strength (in most cases anyway).

cts · 11-02-2009, 08:13 AM

over my last 150k (strongly winning sample, +12.83bb/100) my nonsd winning are very negative, of about the same magnitude of my overall winnings.

krmont22 · 11-02-2009, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cts

over my last 150k (strongly winning sample, +12.83bb/100) my nonsd winning are very negative, of about the same magnitude of my overall winnings.

its super dependant on the games you play in where no one ever folds. at midstakes where everyone plays 18/12 and nut peddles its very easy to have a good redline.

chinz · 11-02-2009, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cts

over my last 150k (strongly winning sample, +12.83bb/100) my nonsd winning are very negative, of about the same magnitude of my overall winnings.

As I already posted, it's possible at least in midstakes to be both a huge winner and huge winner in nonsd's. Winning around $70/100 at midstakes certainly means he's crushing those games, and he's also winning without showdowns.

It might be different in more aggressive highstakes games, I'm not saying that you're wrong.

PBJaxx · 11-02-2009, 03:15 PM

Good to see a couple super ballers posting that they lose in non-SD.

This has been said many times, but I think the whole redline thing is WAY overvalued by 2p2 in general. Its quite obvious that its a product of the games you play in. My redline usually isn't consistent at all. I have won massive amounts without SD in HU games and also lost a lot without SD in HU games (obv villain dependent). The same applies to 6m, deep, cap, etc. The biggest fish in PLO games still overvalue hands in general, and against them, I fully expect to lose money in non-SD pots and still have a large edge. Even that isn't that simple. Some guys only overvalue hands preflop, but are pretty nitty postflop, and we will win without SD vs those guys, etc.

This is far from ground-breaking, but its still worth posting in these threads. Just beat whoever you are playing against IMO.

Peligro! · 11-02-2009, 05:56 PM

It's overvalued because people don't realize it's inherently negative on average.