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Old 06-07-2015, 10:05 PM   #126
Schwein
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Another screenshot showing distance between accounts (added FedorZaysev and emper0r92). Full explanation in post #123



First 10 columns is distance between banned bot BOOTTLEGGER and alleged botters from my OP.

The following 6 columns is distance between legit reg accounts. The last column is distance between alleged botter SusaaNiN and legit Russian reg N@T@L@T.
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Old 06-07-2015, 10:06 PM   #127
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by KrachBummEnte View Post
If this is a major bot ring operated by the same people (stats suggest) then it should be easy to have the bots communicate holecards and gain massive advantages. This is one part of the explanation of the huge winrates.
The other part is them never getting tilted, tired or lose focus.

I don't think a single bot can beat a good reg (yet) if factors such as tilt are ignored, but they are major. Holecard sharing is even worse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutty2 View Post
Good point
That was one of the things Grethe and I noticed when analyzing some of the accounts that have been banned. They ran crazy above AIEV. I had 110k hands in my db in total with 6 accounts that is now banned, and they ran 130BI above AIEV or 11.8bb/100. Sure, thats not impossible, but its definetely likely that they shared holecards somehow
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Old 06-07-2015, 10:08 PM   #128
Schwein
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oink View Post
That was one of the things Grethe and I noticed when analyzing some of the accounts that have been banned. They ran crazy above AIEV. I had 110k hands in my db in total with 6 accounts that is now banned, and they ran 130BI above AIEV or 11.8bb/100. Sure, thats not impossible, but its definetely likely that they shared holecards somehow
What was their std dev?
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Old 06-07-2015, 10:19 PM   #129
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

aaand even if they are "bots", they still can chat ofcourse. there is still a human behind everything and im pretty sure he knows some people are thinking about cheating cause they (inc. me in ~tilt) have been yelling everything stupid in chat and i have been talking with prius in chat also(he is already banned am i right?). so that human(s) behind everything knows he have to change strategies sometimes and need to look like his bots are tilting/changing strategies or jump to zoom from 6max sometimes ofcourse, when bots does that, it proves only that there is clever guy(s) behind everything, if bots are chatting or tilting or anything like that. human who makes that kind of bot/cheating system cant be so braindead to let his bots play every draw exactly same way.
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Old 06-07-2015, 10:26 PM   #130
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwein View Post
What was their std dev?
It varies. Of the 6 banned accounts I played with, the lowest Std dev was 173bb/100 and the highest was 203bb/100.

To be clear, those accounts are: Razdavay7, Phantorin, Topdog669, Thoughtsaway, TotalSuccess and SmellUrBux
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Old 06-07-2015, 10:38 PM   #131
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

BOOTLEGGER is confirmed banned?!
but no one received refunds for him?
i was like 1,3k down vs him and did get only a 18$ refund last 12 months...
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Old 06-07-2015, 10:42 PM   #132
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

I play against most of the accounts in the OP almost every day and am massively (~200BI) below EV this year too, I think there might be something in the holecard sharing and said it in Grethe and Oink's SSPLO thread without really being sure. If I get some time this week will look at my dbs and see what I can find but can't promise anything as off on holiday for 3 weeks on Thursday.

edit: I did check quickly yesterday and am actually doing fine against the named accounts with the exception of 4somniare who basically just runs like jesus and is ~20BI up on me.
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Old 06-07-2015, 10:45 PM   #133
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by TeHKai View Post
BOOTLEGGER is confirmed banned?!
but no one received refunds for him?
i was like 1,3k down vs him and did get only a 18$ refund last 12 months...
BOOTLEGGER didnt play a single hand since February 2015, check my OP for screenshot.

I dont know how they calculate the refunds but the amount lost by all the players that lost against BOOTLEGGER is way,way higher then his total winnings because he also lost money to a lot of players. Wish I could help here. Only thing I know that he is gone. 10/17 accounts from my list are gone.
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Old 06-07-2015, 11:01 PM   #134
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

I'm surprised no one has mentioned RockfellaJ. He and Ipushmyprius made me the most suspicious back in 2013 when I was massmultitabling for SNE. Same thing with some of the other players named here mainly by Schwein, I complained multiple times to my friends that there has to be something shady going on with those accounts and when I found this thread I was not surprised but very glad that I was not the only one who thought so. I remember countless times when I sat many hours on tables that had me, maybe another legit reg and sometimes 4 of these suspected accounts. I lost a ton of money to them, don't even want to know how much, super **** tilting stuff.

I remember the nick RockfellaJ very well because I was once looked into by Pokerstars when someone reported a hand were he made a 4 bet and folded to my AI shove. (For those who are interested, Link to that thread http://www.pocketfives.com/f10017/ah...busted-680734/)

I only have my 2015 DB left after a SSD crash so can't check for his stats unless I get the HH's from stars, hopefully someone has enough DB history with him.

- nussunlussun
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Old 06-07-2015, 11:08 PM   #135
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

I have Sussanin, BOOT and 4somniare quite a bit over EV while Samanta is be EV wise in my db. Is it possible to check russian ptr for AIEV if you have a pro account there?

As far as i know 4somniare is also the biggest winner at zoom 200 this year by far
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Old 06-07-2015, 11:21 PM   #136
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by bug View Post
I'm surprised no one has mentioned RockfellaJ. He and Ipushmyprius made me the most suspicious back in 2013 when I was massmultitabling for SNE. Same thing with some of the other players named here mainly by Schwein, I complained multiple times to my friends that there has to be something shady going on with those accounts and when I found this thread I was not surprised but very glad that I was not the only one who thought so. I remember countless times when I sat many hours on tables that had me, maybe another legit reg and sometimes 4 of these suspected accounts. I lost a ton of money to them, don't even want to know how much, super **** tilting stuff.

I remember the nick RockfellaJ very well because I was once looked into by Pokerstars when someone reported a hand were he made a 4 bet and folded to my AI shove. (For those who are interested, Link to that thread http://www.pocketfives.com/f10017/ah...busted-680734/)

I only have my 2015 DB left after a SSD crash so can't check for his stats unless I get the HH's from stars, hopefully someone has enough DB history with him.

- nussunlussun
Thats awesome, we have one more. He is banned already.



The distance between RockfellaJ and BOOTTLEGGER is 65.43. (for explanation look post #123)

Updated bot count 18, where 11 are already banned.
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Old 06-07-2015, 11:27 PM   #137
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

yes RockfellaJ is one of cheaters too for sure, did not remember that cause havent seen him for a while [/B]
Quote:
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As far as i know 4somniare is also the biggest winner at zoom 200 this year by far
as braindead player he is, that cant be real without lots of cheating.
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Old 06-07-2015, 11:28 PM   #138
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Another Russian account that might be worth checking is Ucall_itover.
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Old 06-07-2015, 11:31 PM   #139
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Is this card sharing cheating or bot issue? Maybe make a differen thread ?
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Old 06-07-2015, 11:35 PM   #140
Schwein
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmy View Post
Another Russian account that might be worth checking is Ucall_itover.
He is legit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexo18 View Post
Is this card sharing cheating or bot issue? Maybe make a differen thread ?
Its about botting. The card sharing is just a hypothesis. In Grethes DB the banned accounts run 11.8bb above EV over a 110K hands sample while playing with 188 std dev. The likehood of this happening is 1.8684%. Thats pretty small but not a definitive proof (its a 2.4 sigma event).

Last edited by Schwein; 06-07-2015 at 11:43 PM.
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Old 06-07-2015, 11:36 PM   #141
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by Schwein View Post
He is legit.
k, good
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Old 06-07-2015, 11:48 PM   #142
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Updated distance chart as explained in post #123



First 12 columns are botter pairs, where RockfellaJ and BOOTTLEGGER are already banned.

Next 6 are legit accounts pairs, last column is alleged botter SuSaaNiN compared to legit grinder N@T@L@T.

Small distance means accounts are super similar, large distance means they are very different.

I will make this spreadsheet public on Google docs on Tuesday, as promised earlier.
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Old 06-08-2015, 12:39 AM   #143
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Very nice Job OP! Sick & tilting stuff
I dont even want to know what happens on smaller sites...
According to the card sharing: can you figure out/ filter these accounts and check there winnings with K high flushes?
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Old 06-08-2015, 02:47 AM   #144
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Lets make it 19 altogether. I am posting a new account SSELrive together with RockfellaJ account which looks like his carbon copy. RockfellaJ was banned or vanished in February 2015.



The distance between RockfellaJ and SSELrive is 51.34 (as defined in post #123)

SSelrive also passes my second test (described in post #101). I am putting him with all the others on one spreadsheet.




I know he is losing overall according to Russian PTR, but has a solid 6bb/100 winrate on stakes 1/2 and 2/4
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Old 06-08-2015, 02:54 AM   #145
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Thanks for this OP great thread. This year I've played hundreds of thousands of hands against most of the players that were mentioned. Seeing those win rates absolutely blew me away considering that i thought pretty much all of them were reg fish except for Fedor who i thought was the best out of all of them. That being said i have to believe that there is hole card sharing which i think is the only way they could get those win rates.

Last edited by PURPLEPILS99; 06-08-2015 at 03:09 AM.
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Old 06-08-2015, 03:09 AM   #146
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

I got once contacted on skype by some shady guy offering me a groundbreaking software to improve my winrate on the base of profit sharing with him. Obv he didnt want to go more in detail and I basically blocked him right away... I suspect it either beeing some kind of seating script OR automated software .


has anyone else ever received this kind of offer?
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Old 06-08-2015, 03:34 AM   #147
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

OMG this is so huge... It looks like millions have been stolen from legit players. People complain all the time that games got so much thougher... This might actually be a huge reason as well. Especially if they are card sharing this is so sick.

Makes me think 3 depressing things;
- WTF, how much money have i been cheated for in my carreer? I guess i don't want to know.
- Catching all these guys is great obviously, but what stops people from doing the same in the future but just slightly smarter. Add some more variation or occasional human actions and we won't detect them. It's a huge red flag for the future of online poker if bots are already good enough to crush midstakes.
- Pokerstars is always proud about their cheating detection team. They have way more data then the players do, but it seems that they didn't catch these guys for years... That is really sickening. Pokerstars should be hiring heavily in their security department.

Huge thanks for all the hard work by grethe, oink, schwein and others!
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Old 06-08-2015, 03:36 AM   #148
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Schwein,

If they are card sharing the zoom pools; i expect many accounts on all the limits.

Have you checked out some zoom grinders of the 500 pool? Or does that one seems less affected?
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Old 06-08-2015, 03:41 AM   #149
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

I have found 4 accounts that were crushing the PL50 stakes, it looks like Stars has found them as well, because they are all gone. Still going to post those for the record.



Total count is 23, where 15 are are gone and 8 still up and running.
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Old 06-08-2015, 04:02 AM   #150
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

This is about colluding bots at the same table, correct?
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