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Old 06-06-2015, 08:13 AM   #1
Schwein
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Exclamation Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

The description of the bot ring can be found here, no need for me to write it all again. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...58&postcount=1

The stats can be found here http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...25&postcount=5

I found 10+ more accounts. Posting only those that play on daily basis.






I strongly believe those arent fully automated. The playing schedule of the ones on zoom would suggest, that they are operated by humans working a 9 to 5 and 5 days a week job. (some sort of PLOSnowie?)



How to find bots using your own HEM database, a 3 step guide.

Step 1. Go to opponents tab, filter out for most hands played and sort by postflop Agg %. They should be sitting right next to each other like a big happy family. Anyone with postflop Agg% between 38.5 and 41.5 should be checked manually.



Step 2. Check all the other stats, if c/r flop is really high and equal to c/r turn and 3bet is equal to sqz (wtf?) they are a prime suspect.



Step 3. Ask someone with a Russian PTR account to check for final confirmation.

Thats more or less what I did. Thanks to Oink and Grethe and the guy that provided me with access to Russian PTR so I could dig up some dirt.



Bonus step. Go report to PokerStars.

MOD EDIT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwein View Post
The "scientific" way of checking how different 2 accounts are from each other is to measure the distance between their respective stats. I did it for 1 banned bot accounts: BOOTTLEGGER, 3 active accounts from my list: IMissFender,Samanta81,SusaaNIN and 4 legit regulars from PL200: N@T@L@T,Shuller_A1t,Nakamator,Bagrovui. I picked those legit accounts because they have played a lot of hands and are mostly Russian.

The stats of banned bots/alleged bots are here http://i57.tinypic.com/2n84qow.png
I entered them into an excel spreadsheet here:


I will not post the stats of legit players to protect their privacy.

Afterwards I have calculated the distance between those 8 accounts mentioned earlier. I have used "Squared Euclidean distance" for it. It can be found here http://i61.tinypic.com/6ell61.png


Thats the distance between following account pairs in form of a graph



The 6 first columns are BOOTLEGGER,Samanta81,IMissFender,SusaaNiN compared in pairs.

The next 6 columns are 4 legit accounts compared in pairs.

The last column is an alleged bot SuSaaNiN compared to legit Russian grinder N@T@L@T.

Small column means small distance, accounts are very similar, big column means the accounts are completely different.

EDIT: I didnt enter more accounts because typing all of it into excel is a huge pain in the ass. I will put all my research on Google Drive on Tuesday and make it free for everyone to download, including the spreadsheet to calculate the difference between any 2 accounts.
MOD EDIT

SUMMARY


Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwein View Post
Willy and another person helping me on this case have checked all the PL100+ hands from 1 May 2015 onwards. I can conclude that all the bots from this ring on PL100 and up are already discovered. Any player that isnt on this list is innocent.

I have updated my list, 11 names with a NO written in red next to them were still active as of 1 June 2015. The blacked out name got discovered after PokerStars made their public statement and I started sending all the names directly to them instead of making them public.



Added another column to the list, its profit with rakeback, estimated at 50% average.

The botring played an estimated 17.8M hands, made 2.82M with rakeback and the damage done to legit players is at least 4.16M. Once again those estimates are lowballed because RPTR misses some normal hands and alot of zoom hands, the rakeback estimates are rather conservative as well.

If any news website would like to run an article on this then those are the numbers to quote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwein View Post
Some stuff from the HEM. The initial list in the OP was prepared based on similarities between RPTR accounts and the calculated distance between account pairs.

I wanted to prove additionally that its not a bunch of random aggro accounts and that why I started to look for stats which are uncommon for aggro regulars and uncommon in general.

The following screens are prepared based on a large DB from 1 October 2014 to 1 January 2015. The accounts in question tend to perform an aggressive action on flop and turn with the same frequency and it tends to be over 15% for all 4 stats.

All the accounts in question have the same 3bet as squeeze, I have first described it here http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=101
It makes no sense to have 3bet=sqz when playing 100bb+, winning players very rarely play like this and its uncommon for aggressive players as well. So its not like 3bet=sqz is some secret formula that increases the winrate.

All the accounts had the BB Agg = Overall Agg, once again it makes no sense, winning players tend to have much lower BB Agg then overall aggression (they range is wider and weaker in BB).

Colour coded the similarities for the alias, and I am posting 4 screenshots for individual accounts that had the most hands in that DB. The numbers might very a bit, because its just 50-100k samples.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwein View Post
Please read it all guys. Lets move on to Party. I believe the guys running the same bot over there are:

ADIDASex
calmeguru
hornet014
fierceberserk
Pivovich
Ravvinn
suxyourphone

Anyone with access to PokerTableratings premium is kindly requested to post screenshots of all 7 of them with stats. I was doing my comparisons on 25-120k samples which is very messy compared to the luxury of having 1M samples on RPTR for Stars. Those are the HEM samples for the alleged botters on Party




And another screenshot showing stuff I have described earlier here http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1071



Now the compared aliases for Party (bots) and Stars (PSbots). The aliases have slightly more hands so things start to look really similar.





The Party accounts in question did go 7/7 on the stat I shared with Stars security.

One really important final note!!!

Me and my associates checked how stats are calculated in HEM and PT4. Some stats are different for the same HH sample when compared between PT4, HEM and RPTR. The most important differences are AFQ for flop, turn, river. Yes all 27 accounts on Stats from my list have really close AFQ river when comparing RPTR vs RPTR.

And they have once again really close AFQ river when comparing HEM vs HEM stats for them, but the AFQ river on RPTR is 23 on average. The AFQ river is 30 on average when looking in HEM at all the accounts.

Last edited by napsus; 06-17-2015 at 03:39 AM.
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Old 06-06-2015, 08:48 AM   #2
JoKon
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

this is huge if true
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Old 06-06-2015, 08:53 AM   #3
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

i have my suspicions about some of the above, but fairly certain Samanta and FedorZ arent bots
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Old 06-06-2015, 09:14 AM   #4
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

How does it make sense for people running a SS/MSPLO botring with winning bots to have a 9-5 job five days a week?

If their 9-5 is worth enough money to keep them from running the bots full time, then it's unlikely that they would have spent the time and energy to create the bots in the first place

If creating the bots is worth it, then it's unlikely that they stay with their 9-5

Random thought... I have nothing else to add.

edit: or do you mean that they run the bots as if it was a 9-5 job? if so excuse my post lol
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Old 06-06-2015, 09:18 AM   #5
Schwein
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loctus View Post
How does it make sense for people running a SS/MSPLO botring with winning bots to have a 9-5 job five days a week?

If their 9-5 is worth enough money to keep them from running the bots full time, then it's unlikely that they would have spent the time and energy to create the bots in the first place

If creating the bots is worth it, then it's unlikely that they stay with their 9-5

Random thought... I have nothing else to add.
Running the bot is their 9 to 5 job. Some of the accounts are active 5 days a week for 8 hours, always during the same hours.
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Old 06-06-2015, 09:29 AM   #6
Ayeeeesh
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

I'm assuming it's ok to ask whether Emper0r was the seventh player in Oink and Grethe's suspicions? I would be shocked if he wasn't - the only player I've ever suspected. Seems to own me but he plays so bad and very similarly to the Kazakhs. Would be surprised if it was true of others mentioned though.
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Old 06-06-2015, 09:45 AM   #7
GotBluffing
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

I played a lot of hands with all the players mentioned above and all of them have a completely different postflop/preflop style.
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Old 06-06-2015, 09:51 AM   #8
BigAisaOK
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Samanta has replied to me in chat before. That's mean def not bot right?
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Old 06-06-2015, 09:54 AM   #9
cattler
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

like OP posts it could be possible that humans press the buttons but based on a fully automatic decision taking software.
def the stats do look very strange
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Old 06-06-2015, 09:58 AM   #10
JoKon
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

what's really strange is some of these players have great results and never tried to play anything 500 and above , i'd guess that if u beat 200 for 8/100 at a solid sample u'd take a shot a little bit higher no?
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Old 06-06-2015, 10:08 AM   #11
Loctus
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwein View Post
Running the bot is their 9 to 5 job. Some of the accounts are active 5 days a week for 8 hours, always during the same hours.
Ah, yes, figured it out after looking at the play-time stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoKon View Post
what's really strange is some of these players have great results and never tried to play anything 500 and above , i'd guess that if u beat 200 for 8/100 at a solid sample u'd take a shot a little bit higher no?
Yeah but a bot operator would have the exact same incentive as a human player to do the same so that's not too relevant I think
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Old 06-06-2015, 10:11 AM   #12
JoKon
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

i understand but players in higher stakes are more likely to exploit a bot's patterns and if not they are more likely to expose it.
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Old 06-06-2015, 10:24 AM   #13
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoKon View Post
what's really strange is some of these players have great results and never tried to play anything 500 and above , i'd guess that if u beat 200 for 8/100 at a solid sample u'd take a shot a little bit higher no?
That was one of the damming evidences for the russian/Kazahk bots that were banned. They all crushed PLO100 for 7-11 bb/100 (thats what? 12-17bb/100 incl SB rb). But didnt move up. None of them were ever tracked playing a hand of 1/2 or above. never!
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Old 06-06-2015, 10:30 AM   #14
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayeeeesh View Post
I'm assuming it's ok to ask whether Emper0r was the seventh player in Oink and Grethe's suspicions? I would be shocked if he wasn't - the only player I've ever suspected. Seems to own me but he plays so bad and very similarly to the Kazakhs. Would be surprised if it was true of others mentioned though.

It was. Now that others have outet his stats, we are fine with acknowledging that. Right from the start, when we looked at their stats, he was the one player that stood out.
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Old 06-06-2015, 10:31 AM   #15
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

@ OP

Id be very surprised if Seregaxx is a bot. I have seen him on crazy ass monkey tilt a number of times. He also likes to try to run people over. If he runs good he gets sick aggressive.

Have always been suspicious towards IMissFender. But take that fwiw, havent played him that much, but he does a lot of the same things as the banned accounts

Last edited by Oink; 06-06-2015 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 06-06-2015, 10:41 AM   #16
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

So guys, I've added the "new suspected accounts" to the dataset we provided to Pokerstars back in February.



Some interesting points:

1) I dont like the idea of posting nicks, OP. First of all, nothing is sure and we might risk they also are reading this...

2) I'm pretty sure FedorZ not is a bot. He used to play NLHE as well. Seregaxx and Samanta81 have posted in the chat.

3) The dataset is very interesting. Especially the difference between the allready busted accounts and the new accounts.
I mean, 21/25 stats are within a 5% interval and most inside a 2% difference. With sample sizes this big and the number of comparable accounts included, this cant be explained by random coincidence or a special "playstyle".

4) Some of the difference might be due to the mix of zoom and reg tables.
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Old 06-06-2015, 10:41 AM   #17
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

This is indeed huge...
Have always seen similarities in some spots in some of the mentioned players. I do play on a daily basis with almost all of them. Let me know how I can help for the investigation. Would more complaints to stars urge the investigation or should i just try to find spots, in which they play very similarly.

Btw if it is a person clicking buttons looking at a program that does all decisions for him, I believe stars are fine with this; there was a similar thread about a HUSNG program with same features and it was not banned, as it was the player clicking the buttons.
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Old 06-06-2015, 10:48 AM   #18
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

I hope this is going to be taken very seriously from good data analyzing people and pokerstars , we are talking about almost a 500k hit to the players who are trying to move up in the food chain and their protection/security is essential for the future health of the games.
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Old 06-06-2015, 10:55 AM   #19
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by JoKon View Post
I hope this is going to be taken very seriously from good data analyzing people and pokerstars , we are talking about almost a 500k hit to the players who are trying to move up in the food chain and their protection/security is essential for the future health of the games.
Including rb, the russian/Kazahk bots at PLO100 took out +250k USD over maybe 18 months. Anyone who thinks thats a non issue, regardless if you are a PLO100 reg or a PLO1k reg, has no idea how the poker economy works.

It is a HUGE issue

Last edited by Oink; 06-06-2015 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 06-06-2015, 11:01 AM   #20
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Id also like to encourage all to take a close look at the stats Grethe just posted. The similarities between the postflop stats in particular is disturbing. I mean, yeah sure, they could all have learned PLO from the same dude and talk PLO with each other. But it needs looking into.
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Old 06-06-2015, 11:17 AM   #21
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

wow - wow - wow

wtf - this be cray

it would make me mad if all those were bots

i just stumbled upon this thread. didnt go fully into it yet. just saw the sns. Will comment more later. thx for posting.


PS: if the recent refund concern these players, then the refund was a joke.
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Old 06-06-2015, 11:24 AM   #22
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

surprised none's mentioned fedorzaysev specifically since he plays the highest of all the listed players...he plays all regular 6m tables 2/4-5/10 including posting hu at 5/10 vs tough regs. if he's a bot that's pretty scary :O

have played a little with seregaxx too
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Old 06-06-2015, 11:30 AM   #23
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

@OP

thanks for sharing. I do not think that they are full automated bots. But I am pretty sure that seregaxx, FedorZaysev, Samanta81, IPushMyPrius and Emper0r at least work/worked together or are related somehow.
Even though their preflop stats do not seem to match exactly they have a lot of very similar postflop stats and tendencies.



But it could be possible that they are just a training group
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Old 06-06-2015, 11:33 AM   #24
Schwein
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Once again thanks to Grethe for providing updated charts.

I only have hands against 5 of those accounts, I dont datamine and only use the very limited resources I have at my disposal from own HEM.

Lets look at 2 stats that are extremly rare for full stacking regs, BB Agg equal to overall Agg. I am not sure if there is a single winning reg that has it, but here we have it for 5 out 5 accounts in my DB.



The other super rare stat is 3bet equal to sqz, once again its 5 out 5.



I dont have hands for the other guys but I bet all of my Schweine bacon they will fit the description.
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Old 06-06-2015, 11:47 AM   #25
kelnel
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Schweine, you can't receive pm's. You wrote in your OP that you found 10+ accounts but only posted those that played daily. Can you pm the sn of the others somehow (a friend of yours might have a account with more posts?) ?
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