I regularly play in an action live game with 2 mega action guys who go after each other hard- pot and repot each other preflop. If another person brings it in for a raise, almost 100% that one of them repots it preflop. 4 bets are less frequent but still present. Bottomline, all pots bloated preflop and they straddle on their option.

One player plays decently postflop-the other poorly. Both typically pot multiple barrels.

Game is 5-5 or 5-10 game. Occasionally 10-25. Game plays much bigger as they both buy in deep (1000BBs+).

My BR not big enough to withstand variance to buy in deep as them.

The typically sit across table from one another so almost always sandwiched between them (no i do not suspect them colluding).

Game is action (6-7 plyrs goto flop looking to hit something)

Given table dynamic looking for thoughts/guidance on:

1. Starting hands.

2. Starting stack
(50BBs min)

3. Other thoughts on preflop play?

My image is TAG

Thx n advance.

1. Play premium starting hands, stay away from double suited traps like kq63, watch out for where gaps are in your hand (ie q1098 vs qj108), preferably bottom obv, and be careful with AAragrag and KK rag rag. Don't just call though, attack with position and don't be afraid to be the aggressor.

2. Depends on roll, sounds like you could do 50bbs and get a few pots built so you can push with one bet on flop (i.e. raise 3 bbs, call, 3 better goes to 13, then you can put in most of stack with AA rag or akq10, even kk or 5678 ds if you want to gamble)

3. vs over aggro, ppl try to get into calling mode to wait for nuts and let player donate. However, if they are decent on flop, going to get run over for a bunch of small pots and get no action when you finally attack. Worst thing to do is to turn into a call tard, (ok to call hands like j1097, 8855, 7653, etc. but don't just call with the premium hands, make them pay) Also, be careful betting draws. If you have position on the table, don't be afraid to check back with str8 draw and low flush draw, etc... Although, if you are playing 50bbs will be all in or fold.

Hope this helps, want to play that game.

Luke
Thx for observations & feedback.

It's definitely a dream game with a sufficient roll to buy in deep, lol. It's just retardly sick.

I still gotta put more thought on my approach to game given roll. Deep is out of question. I'm struggling if short is correct either tho (see below).

1. LAG A (semi-decent postflop) stats are prob 80/60/30, lol. Draws to non nuts frequently but will fold hands if played back at. Aggro postflop until resistance.

2. LAG B (poor postflop) stats are 85/40/20. He will not lay down any set and calls nonnut draws for big bets on flop/turn. Biggest donater.

Almost all the pots are contested 5-6 multiway after flop. Virtually 0 limped pots. Most pots 3 bet preflop. Some 4 betted as well.

My preflop starting hands are in line with what u suggested altho I probably need to guard against leaking with speculative hands for too much of my stack (ur example vs aggros is good).

Example hand 1 ($5-5 PLO):

Hero ($300): As9s8x7x

LAG B opens $20, 2 call, Hero calls BTN. LAG A from BB 3 bets to $100. All call his $100. Hero calls?

I call. Flp KJTr. LAG A pots. I get airball flop with quality starting hand and drain 1/3 of stack. Fold.

Premium made preflop hands (good Aces, hi dbl paired hands etc) are challenging as ISO vs one of the preflop lagtards is mostly impractical. With 5-6 players going to flop to hit something, those hands r a dog to get outflopped.

Example hand 2 ($5-5 PLO).

Hero ($250): AsQsAh5h

3 limp, Hero pots from CO

LAG A repots from BB. All limpers call.

Hero shoves remaining stack preflop (mistake?). LAG A just calls & doesnt re-iso. All 3 limpers call.

Flop J63xx. I lose to LAG A (AdJd6d2c). A hand I'd happily play prflp vs him headsup cuz 74/26 fav but with the 3 limpers calling its uphill to hold up.

In retrospect, just calling LAG A's 3 bet pre is better if I know he doesn't re-iso 4 bet. Even tho I'm pot committed, there's still fold equity with a bet that could get raised to drive out others etc.

On a positive note, on nights I've built a stack I've been able to do well. Either having them crushed when money allin postflop or from stealing on good texture boards when checked to in position etc. My TAG image slows them down postflop when i have a stack.

Most of players are predictable and easy to read postflop.

Bottomline my edge in this game is playing postflop and quality starting hands. Both seemed to be negated given the bloated, multiway nature of game without a deep stack.

I'm up overall in game but definitely feel like I could do better...small fortune to be made..

Thx 4 insight.

If u do well when you have chips behind for post flop play, buy in deeper. If u need to sell some of your action, do so. Play strong in position and isolate the LAGs a bit wider than you normally would to mitigate the crap shoot nature of 6 way pots.

I see your points here captain, but we want to avoid getting in the mindset of how to "avoid losing".

For instance, your AA play is perfectly fine. The second you start re-evaluating plays because you lost (even when they are completely correct) is when you second guess yourself and start making incorrect plays. It just seems to me that you are going to have to go through a few 50bbs buy ins before you quadruple up (or more!).

The goal here is to get a deep stack for cheaper. Say you lose two buy ins with strong hands to sick beats and weak hands. Finally you win one with four people in pot. For 150 bbs you now have 200bbs. Once you are in this spot, then you can play more passively preflop and try to outplay people on the flop. However, I will stick with my guns saying if you can get AA aipf, no matter how deep, it is a plus ev play. You have to be willing to lose stacks in plo. The variance in the game is so sick, but once you hold a few times you will be looking at a stack of 1000 bbs at the table. It might take a few nights of losing 150-200bbs, but in the end you will be a winner.

One final note. Even with a hand like a987 (which is actually on the weaker side of the premium range), I would always avoid getting a third of your stack in to see what happens. If you feel confident with it, just shove. If you don't feel like you can shove in that spot, then fold. These guys are making money based on the fact that they can out aggress you, and the worst thing you can do is call off large portions of your stacks when you are shortstacking. 50bbs is always shove or fold (if you can get away calling 1 or 2 bbs, fair enough)

+1

+4. Definitely playing 68TJ while never playing 679J (ds)

Might not be a bad idea to try to jam every premium rundown if you think you are getting called 3 ways.

Or you could skip the gambling and buy in as deep as them

never playing 679j (ds) sounds like one of the worst ideas.

hes got a point about the j 976, although if I am in position and its double suited, can't say i'd insta fold.

If i'm playing heads up and aggro player raises me, might even 3 bet it there, just not much value at a 6-9 handed table.

You're going to make a lot of dominated ass wraps

i play in a similar game every now and then and let me tell you that short stacking such a table is suicide for many of the reasons noted above. you're going to nit it up, wait for the premium starting hands and end up sticking 1/3-1/2 of your stack in preflop - most likely multiway. when do you do connect, you'll have zero fold equity if they even catch a small piece of the flop and then pray that you fade 2-3 villains.

i need to echo posters above - the single best piece of advice is to find a way to buy in full and then really utilize POSITION. i also think it is OK to open up your range wider than normal pre, especially in late position.

A game this aggro you're just gonna have to gamble it up at 50bbs. Push big cards and pray for protection.

Oh really? Still hope this is a level...

Sounds like u have a good appreciation for this style of game Sbecks. Thx for comments.

Normally I'd think a short stack has a big advantage in an aggro game. However when ISO preflop is improbable and u go to flop 5-6 multiway, it is just hard to fade their outs.

Since my initial post, I have bought in for 50 BBs. Played nit tight and got it in with premiums. In 4 sessions, I've not won 1 showdown allin preflop, lol. Small sample size obviously, but, it does give an idea how tough it can be to hold in this style of game.

Bottomline, I've had most success buying in for 130-150 BBs. I'm still the shortest stack but it does give me a tad more room for play postflop even if pots bloated.

Would much rather play 300BBs+ but I'm working on that.

Gonna revert to buying in for 130 BBs+ and open up more in position.

I agree, you need to go down in stakes or buy in with them. I think you will find if you play lower stakes than you can afford your game will be much better, or be willing to put more on the table.

That is an issue with live plo -- there are very few small stakes games and usually only 1 game that goes in a particular casino. And most often that game is a $5 game which typically Plays huge (with straddles etc).