I wanted to start a thread regarding the optimal defending ranges for online cash games $2/$4 and above.

I think this is a very difficult question because it will almost certainly vary depending on the size of the raise, the position of the raise and number of callers, etc.

So let's assume it's for one pot-sized raise, from the button.

(Note: I think it would be helpful (and insightful) if people specify what their thoughts are for the particular stake level because I have noticed a difference on what I see people defend with at $2/$4 than say $5/$10. But maybe that is more appropriate for a different thread in and of itself - I've noticed some pretty stark differences with respect to this)

In any event, I was curious about this because I've seen, what I consider, very loose defenses (K872s, Q772) with hands that have terrible reverse implied odds. My favorite was something like J722s. (I have to imagine game flow was a big part of some of these but maybe I'm wrong)

For me, my range would be anything that is relatively connected with suit(s) (JT98s), hands with pairs and connected: TT97s of the world, double suited hands that have some level of connectivity (KQ76ss), big pairs AA, KK, QQ regardless of suits and connectivity.

Now I include everything because I'm going to assume that my three-betting and calling ranges are balanced, excluding the former's inclusion of a junk hand on occasion where I think the button is stealing too frequently (the type of junk hand I might throw in is something that has blockers, e.g. A962)

Cheers.

seven doozes never loses

I think if you learn the basic concepts of hand strength and can read preflop action sufficiently well you'll naturally be able to find the correct range to play.

I defend my BB against CO/BTN/SB openers quite wide for pretty much mathematical reasons exclusively given against a single PSR you're getting a very good price to defend in relation to your average equity which isn't often that far behind given the game is PLO. This isn't to say that you can't tighten your defending ranges to some slightly better hands that you're more comfortable playing - I.e. you're going to lose less/ win more if you defend with hands you're confident in playing post-flop OOP as opposed to defending with a bunch of hands you think you'll find a hard time with post-flop and OOP. I pretty much defend with most half-connected suited decent kind of stuff, I still throw out a lot of garbage hands in the BB given OOP sucks and reverse implieds can be pretty rough in PLO.

SB defence I'm significantly tighter than from most other positions. In sb your absolute position is the worst, with this problem compounding the more players in the pot. You're also never closing the action when you defend, opening yourself to have say the BB or EP limpers squeeze or even just defend the open and you're left in a 3-4way pot or 3bet pot with marginal holdings, completely OOP which is honestly going to leak you a tonne of money. Your profit/loss from sb over any significant sample should usually be -bb/100 and is usually the worst of all 6 positions. For these reasons, playing a much tighter range will help make your post-flop decisions significantly easier when you're going to be in awkward spots a lot from SB. Higher suits, more connected cards, higher pairs etc.

Honestly if you applied statistical analysis on the opening/ defending ranges of each of the different PLO pools you'd find there is a general correlation between rake rates and opening/ defending ranges. I.e. take a look at PLO100z, rake sucks, 90% of regs are 28/17/8 or something along those lines.

Instead of looking for hard and fast rules for your particular stakes, just play the stakes, observe your opponents (use a HUD) and make correct and/ or exploitative adjustments to those players. You can afford to adjust your opening and defending ranges with/ against different sizings against specific players and obviously taking into account all of the other information you have on hand.

tldr; but as default u can't fold to a single raise since u already invested money in the pot and equitys are so close in plo BUT when there is a 3bet i would tighten up a bit from sb and fold smth like K833(unless it is double-suited tho)!

It honestly would take a book to address this properly.

It is too opponent dependent.

Take all the opponent types and the hand types and the stack sizes and the line options for nutty/non-nutty hands and different opponent, and ...

Good luck getting a good a post-length answer.

If you want something pithy, defend if there's a solid chance you can check-raise the turn.

Does APT Vol2 discuss SB and BB play?

http://www.runitonce.com/poker-train...the-big-blind/

Good luck defending with 2222 then...

How much do you lose in poker per year?

Defending the blinds is overrated. You are out of position, and position is extremely important in PLO. There's no shame in folding.

over 9000

Troll is wrong for sure, but "Defending the blinds is overrated" doesn`t sound very clever as well..

nah im doing fine with 100vpip from BB, obv u need to have the postflop-skills to play this profitable, can't help you with this sry unless u book some coaching!

what your bb/100 ev in BB? and at what limit?

mate, somehow im losing from bb in EV, really weird! probably just variance! o_O

plo2 it is, but im confident that i can reach plo10 within the next 3,50 yrs!

unreal. at plo2 all less than +40 bb/100 is really bad.

3,5 years? I think i 3,5 years we all play 8 card pot limit pokemon instead of poker..

i told ya bro, some sick runbad! but my instincts tell me it will be better soon!

I appreciate that it is difficult (and may not be useful for you to disclose) but
do you have some tips that are slightly less pithy?

The options are huge, how do we narrow down what we should be looking for to play the spot better?

According to the graph you posted in the other thread regarding position that showed your winrate, it looks like you'd be better off just folding every BB than to play it at all. You should be agreeing that defending the blinds is overrated.

First, SolarAU thank you for the long and thoughtful response.

Several points I agree with wholeheartedly. The SB should be a tighter range for many of the reasons you alluded to. Similarly, I also agree that for the defending ranges you can learn a lot about it by simply observing what works at given levels.

Therein lies the heart of - what I intended to be - the discussion.

You see during the last few months I have gone from playing $.25/$.50 to building up my roll and eventually playing $1/$2 regularly, along with $2/$4, $3/$6 and $5/$10. Only a few forays into $10/$20.

The ranges for the BB and, to a lesser extent, the SB should be very different depending on what level you are at. This is one of the reasons that I raised the topic in the first place.

While, yes, the odds are great to defend from the BB, position (as several ppl pointed out) is extremely important in PLO. So important that it strongly negates the closeness of the equities as it pertains to justifying a defend simply because "my odds are good and the equities run so close together."

Generally, as you move up in level, the players in the latest position play much much better and therefore can exploit you if you are going to call with a wide range from the button. (I'm not saying everyone; but much more so than at lower levels.)

In short, I can get away with quite a lot at the lower levels and remain very profitable - it's part of the game at those levels. At $5/$10 and higher, the players will punish ppl who play fast and loose with their range.

I understand why people don't want to divulge any vital information to how they approach this issue but that's what I want to do.

One good way to approach this is to think about what you would want the BB to do if you were in villain's shoes.

So, as an example, take your button stealing strategy. You should be familiar with what your range is, sizing, etc.

Then think about the possible defending strategies you will face. For example, someone in the BB cold-calling 80% and 3-betting 10% or someone cold-calling 55% and 3-betting 15%, etc.

Come up with a bunch of these possible strategies. Then rank them in the order by which you would rather face them if you were the Button. This would mean that the first ranked strategy would be the worst strategy the BB could adopt in response to your BTN strategy.

Although this isn't going to give you any sort of definitive answer, it should force you to think about where EV comes from and what things the BB can do to capture a greater share of it.

One thing to keep in mind is that the above is sort of an incomplete exercise since how the BB plays post-flop is just as important as his pre-flop ranges.

With that in mind, you can consider what are the things the BB can do post-flop to increase his EV. Then, tying it altogether, how do the possible pre-flop ranges support or hinder these post-flop EV-increasing strategies.

If you're then able to successfully combine the two, you'll have a good foundational understanding of how to play from the BB.

i actually dislike your question in a sense you already should know the optimal ranges for your player pool. if you are plo200 player looking for playing optimal ranges at plo400+ , noone will help you better than your own experience from plo200.. you just take it to plo400 and adjust your ranges based on what you experience at plo400, if needed.

The higher the stakes, the more often you have to defend. At the lower stakes, people steal from the button less, and the rake factors in somewhat as well.

I'm pretty sure this just isn't the case

Just keep into consideration the adjustments that you'd need to make for the strength of hands that would just flat in SB, usually assuming that BB will most often call behind, and adjustments where you'd rather have a headsup pot with BTN

ppl at higher stakes adjust better obv.
at PLO25 there was a reg with >90% BU RFI but didnt adjust when i was in the BB.
i think my BU RFI was close to 90% at PLO25. ppl only play their hands and dont pay attention if BU is stealing alot or not. So you get away with such numbers pretty frequently.